01: Introduction

I would agree through I was the same way at the beginning, you know, it was kind of For whatever reason not as smooth feeling as yesterday, but after a while it kind of became just pretty good like back and forth conversation I felt and it went pretty easily. Yeah, absolutely. I think a few more Turns at this thing it'll the more we do it the more natural it's gonna be I did notice this I just throw it out there as you probably have some observations too, but I think it would be I I noticed that I was talking for really long periods of time. It'd be interesting if we could maybe make it more of a dialogue, more of a back and forth. Because I think there's, I'm going for maybe two minutes or something like that before you even get a word in. Sure. Yeah, and I don't think in some respects, I don't think there's a danger to that. But yeah, I think we could make it more small chunks back and forth rather than and kind of a full, you know, two minutes or three minutes. - Yeah, I'm thinking just of like, you know, I don't know what made me think of this, maybe because you listen to 'em all the time, but like a Todd and Todd type of thing, where it's just like, (groans) those fucking guys and then you're jumping in, you're like, "No, that's what you know." It's just like, they're kind of going back and forth. So. (upbeat music) - Okay. - I just found the shock mount for the Yeti microphone that I use. It's a different piece you have to buy, but it's the possibility of if I have any trouble with it. - That's good, that's good to know. - Were you taking a leak? - I did, yeah, I did. (laughing) - It was awfully clear, yeah. - Wow, that's funny, man. The bathrooms are on the corner too. - That's pretty funny. - Ah, I love it, that's good. Shit works. Yeah, it's I'm excited to hear it because right I haven't done a test at all so but I'm excited If it sounds anything like you do then it's gonna be a pretty good deal. Yeah, I would say maybe better I don't know I think that might that that microphone's very popular. I do know that Rave reviews for the price - I mean it was 49 bucks. Yeah, so yeah I suppose the best the first thing is we can start out with since we're new Want to why don't you introduce yourself and talk by yourself a little bit Yeah, sounds good so for any of our for do we have listeners if we have listeners out there Thank you for our listeners For joining our podcast so my name is Mike she in and I am a Full-stack developer been doing full-stack development now for I don't know I got started doing this thing probably about 20 years ago when I was still in school and I live in San Francisco California, I'm a new resident. I was in Seattle for about five years and just moved here a few weeks ago so I'm pretty new here and That's kind of what's going on. I I'm doing work primarily in the middle tier. I don't know which I say about this Well, we should talk a little bit about I think We have a history together even before this or even before Seattle. We both Originally were living and working in Omaha, Nebraska at a hospital there where we worked together for I don't know what two years maybe Yeah, at which time I went ahead and moved to Seattle and began working at a hospital out here and probably what five years or so I would say After I moved, Mike originally came down and we met up on a rooftop bar and you kind of wanted to get back into the space after being out of it for a little while and it kind of worked out really, really quickly. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I came out there in the summer for a Microsoft Visual Studio live conference that was just happening in August, I think. And then by November, I had the job lined up and was driving across the country. That's crazy. It happened quick. So we both kind of worked in different jobs for a few years. And lo and behold here in Seattle, at the company that we both currently work at called Quote Wizard, we are working together again and have been for, I don't know, a year and a half, I guess, at this point. Yeah. 10 years apart. I think we started working together in 2006 and so you came back in 2016 to join the team and it's been about, you know, that was about 10 years. That's right. That's right. And yeah, I guess my name is Kyle Johnson and I'm originally from rural northwest Iowa and moved to Omaha. Like I said, here this debit ago made my way into Seattle and have been here ever since. I'm also a full stack dev mostly on the .NET platform. I specialize primarily I guess I would say in the middle to front and tears probably the area that I enjoy working the most. You know I was just thinking to myself we should make sure that the pecanator sees this or here's this rather. The pecanator maybe we'll have to even bring him on sometime. He could be another guest on the list. There you go. - Yes, that's right. He was our first real manager, a first real manager that I had out of college for me. I think you had another gig before that, but he was a great guy to work for. I had a great time with Don. - Yeah, I would agree with that. I think he was really easy to get along with. Obviously, I think if I remember correctly, he hired me on and then you were very shortly thereafter. - Yep, but yeah, he was really easy to work with. We had a great time in Vegas when we went to that conference. I don't have to dig up some of those old photos. - I guess explain a little bit of the history of coffee and code and kind of what we did and why we're doing. - Yeah, I can, I'll talk about that. I remember that pretty clearly. I mean, it's been about six years, but when I had the idea to come back to Seattle, well, I was here for that conference and I started talking to you about, you know, wanting to get back into things. At that time, I had a business doing home automation type stuff. And so doing some coding during that time, but not really. And I thought to myself, gosh, I got into business to really do the technical things I wanted to do. And I was doing none of those things. I was just doing everything else, finding jobs, marketing sales, accounting, that sort of thing. And I said, if I don't really get back into development full time, I'm just afraid that I'm going to lose my edge. I'm afraid that I won't have a chance to get back in, that there's a narrow window there. So it was out of my fear and this realization that I had been gone from web development for far too long, five years, and web development years, a lot of years. And so we talked a lot. You had given me some buzzword, some things to look into to research, to get up to speed, because a lot of change on the front end in those over that time. And I just, I don't remember who initiated the idea. I think you maybe offered up that if we wanted to get together, you would show me some things that you were working on. And so we kind of got together at a coffee shop a few times. And I think it turned into like a Thursday night coffee and code kind of a thing like we had going for a while. And we even had other people join us at one point in time for just sharing ideas and talking about different technologies and cool things that we were doing. Yeah, that's right. we were both kind of working on different types of projects at the time. And I recall just kind of sharing knowledge and asking questions about how to do things correctly or other ways to do things and just, you know, just general learning. And I think the other people that kind of came and went, you know, I think they benefited from the same type of thing. They were just interested in learning from other folks who had been doing the same types of things and yeah it was just a great learning experience for everybody and relaxing atmosphere and so we decided to kind of take that same idea and make it a podcast I guess is effectively what it is maybe not quite so much deep into the weeds of code but still with some kind of talk of different technologies and frameworks and best practice and that sort of thing. Yes, I'm in. Let's do it. That sounds really good. All right. So next, let's talk about your new gear, man. I want to hear about your gear. Yeah, I guess I'm new gear. So when we talked about the idea of doing the podcast, we did that trial run on some crappy gear and you sounded really good because you have some good stuff. And so I splurged and since I knew we were doing our first podcast tonight, I ordered some Amazon Prime stuff yesterday Which got here like 20 minutes ago, so I just got it set up but What is this thing? This is the blue snowball? Blue snowball yes It's pretty good. I mean, I don't know what it sounds like yet But I think from what you're saying it sounds pretty good. I like the gear I did the same. I actually have a blue mic as well, but mine's the blue Yeti I've actually had it for I don't know gosh Three years probably at this point or something I at one point thought I would do kind of a solo podcast thing and that was a He did embarrassing failure, but oh I didn't know that you had well I wanted to at one point try to do a fitness kind of podcast. I guess I Did have a run in with that at one point which I'm sure we'll get more into later, but yeah, yeah doing them doing them alone Is is quite a whole different a whole different thing I wouldn't have done it myself. That's why I don't have any other content out there. It was just like the idea of even doing it with you. I was a little nervous at first. Oh, gosh. I don't know how this is going to go, but I, yeah, it was great to have a partner in this process. I think it makes it a lot easier. You can kind of roll off of whatever the other person says. And I think there's just a good banter that goes with it. Otherwise, you're just kind of just talking and talking and talking and I feel like it's you kind of lose the kind of Like you did earlier you kind of lose track of what the hell you were talking about And talking circles or something like that Right. Yeah easy to do What's happened in the news? Yeah, I want to talk about what's going on in the news a little bit There's a few things are kind of cool to talk about Being new to San Francisco. I've been I've been seeking out other cool things to do in the deaf community and and there was a Conference actually ended today this Google dev summit was at the herbivoyna center right down the street over here and I didn't go I didn't find out about it until it was too late really but I've been following it anyway There's some neat stuff coming out of there Trusted this trusted web activity so it's so basically what is this conference this conference is Google's chrome conference They talk about new dev Happenings with big announcements on the browser and One of the topics that came out was this trusted web activities. I don't know a lot about it. It sounds like It's a way that you can leverage the chrome browser in your native apps I mean there's kind of this fusion happening between native development and and chrome and so what I understand just from a brief Glance at it is that it's a way to leverage more of the The power of the chrome browser in some of your native applications I think I was reading kind of into the same thing. I didn't know a lot about this until this morning, but yeah, it looks like it's an integration into Chrome trying to integrate more native applications into the Chrome browser itself and kind of continuing what you've seen with Chromebook and what you've seen with kind of Google as a whole and this kind of unification of their platform to try and kind of blend or blur rather the lines between what is a desktop app, what's a web app, and do you even care, I guess? Yeah, exactly. And it really doesn't matter at this point. I mean, most everything's happening on the mobile devices these days anyway. So I think it's just a natural progression that we're coming to this unification, hopefully. Well, and I think you have a Chromebook, do you not? I mean, you've been pretty happy with that, I think, so far. Yeah, I do. I have one of the acer chrome books. It's one of the older ones, but it's, you know, it's like a generation older than what was just recently announced. I'm pretty happy with it. I would say though the hardware on that is, you know, you pay for what you get. I think they have some really new ones, nice ones now that have come out that are a little more a higher price point. But I was impressed anyway at what I could do with a $300 laptop. I was able to remote into my development environment and do some coding and that sort of thing. So pretty robust for 300 bucks, pretty cool devices. - I feel like the biggest danger here is that Google already, to a large degree, has some pretty heavy fragmentation. For instance, Chromebooks like yours that are somewhat dated even already, already can't run a lot of the apps that are available in the App Store, for instance, or maybe not any apps at all. And now you're kind of adding this additional layer on top of that. And so I just, I feel like you're getting this very large fragmentation set of this set of laptops can do X, this set of laptops can do Y. And they're all running the same software, I believe, as I understand, but their capabilities are different just because of manufacturers. - Yeah, it's really confusing, even being in the tech space. I've found it really confusing to try and navigate that, you know, for example, wanting to install Netflix and take advantage of some of the capabilities of the Netflix app for Android. You know, you don't get that on that Chromebook. So partially because of the hardware, I think it has 32 gigs of RAM or something like that. There's not a lot of storage on there either. So I don't remember the exact numbers, but I know that because of the hardware limitations, then there's a software limitation as well. And so yeah, it's just kind of a muddy area right now. And so things I thought would work didn't, didn't work and it's a little challenging. It sounds like to me that Google is trying to kind of get out of ahead of the oncoming 5G internet connection because of because of that coming down the pipe. This is kind of maybe something they're trying to put out in front of that and so that they're able to harness the power of 5G and again continue to kind of blur the line between what is a web app and what is a native application on your device. I think it's a good strategy. I think it's just a little premature. Obviously, there's a lot more that I think the software could be capable of doing. I think it's in the right on the right trajectory, but it's not quite mature enough yet for everyday users, especially people who are used to using Windows and installing applications and that sort of thing. I would tend to agree. Everybody that I've, everybody that I know that has used one of those so far, which is you and I think one other person that I've found out to other people have kind of had about the same experience. It's good for a pretty limited set at this point of things to do and I think this will help maybe move that platform forward and make it a more useful platform as a whole. - Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think yesterday you got another delivery, is that right? A brand new device. Yes, I got a brand new device finally. I replaced my Nexus 5X, which I was ready to toss out the window. That thing was really-- it's really interesting the timing on these things, because all of a sudden, it got really crappy the last few weeks. I've had it fancy that, just coincidence, I think. But yeah, I got a new Pixel 2 yesterday, and I've been test driving it for the last day and a half. So far it's really good. I don't have the Excel. I just got the regular two. And so I don't have, there's been a lot of complaints about the screen on the Excel. I think I saw something today talking about the sound. Like there's some sound issue now that people are talking about when they're wearing headphones or something that there's like this, some kind of clicking sound that's coming through. I don't know. I haven't had that problem yet, but other people are reporting that as well. But I'm very happy. It's a great phone. It's actually, I would say, especially over the, I'm on Project Phi as well. So for me, it's really nice to have kind of a first class device, four Phi. This thing's great. It feels, you can feel it in the hardware. It has some weight, it has some grovy toss to it. It's a really nice device, camera video. I mean, just the overall experience, it puts it right up there for me at an iPhone. It's a competitive product to the iPhone. - Everything that I've read about this thing and don't get me wrong, I don't know a whole lot about it 'cause I am not an Android user. But everything I've read says that this piece of hardware is barring the screen. If the screen was not a problem, they would say that this is like the bar and on the best hardware that's available at this current time. Even beating the iPhone X, I guess. The, if I had one complaint, even just from a purely aesthetic, You know, I don't, personally, as I'm looking at this, a picture of this phone and it's too toned on the back, at least this particular model, it's black, this is the black and white edition. - The panel. - Is that what it's called, it's called Pando, okay? And not only that, but it also has an orange button on the side, I don't, I guess I don't get there design decisions here, but beyond that, I mean, it certainly looks like a pretty solid piece hardware, I would say that the iPhone X is kind of ruined for me the whole kind of small or compressed bezel kind of look that this has. So I mean, even though the bezels are very, very compressed on this, you know, they're, they still seem very, very large and awkward, at least in pictures. Maybe they don't feel that way in terms of the device. on the top and bottom are you saying? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. On the front where the camera and the speakers, and because you have stereo speakers is what it appears maybe. - That's right. - Yeah. So I guess what I was getting at is that, you know, just because of seeing iPhone 10 renders or X or whatever the hell it is you wanna call that, it kind of makes all phones now feel kind of big and clunky, especially if they have these kind of big areas above and below the screen. - Yeah, I wouldn't describe it as clunky. I think for me, particularly coming from the Nexus, this is a lot more streamlined. It's a thinner device. It's not plastic. It's aluminum. The feel of it is definitely more streamlined. In fact, it's interesting. The physical screen size is actually a little smaller. I held it up next to my Nexus and the Nexus has a little taller screen. Not by much, but it's enough. It's noticeable. However, the resolution on this one's greatly improved. So I think that makes up for whatever was lacking in size. It would be nice to have them take advantage of more of the space, but I don't mind it. I'm used to it already. So I think that's probably part of it. If you had something that was more of that aesthetic, I think it would be hard to come back to something like this. But if you haven't had it before, then I'm not really sure it's going to be a problem. Well, and as much as I like the iPhone X with the full edge-to-edge screen, it does come with its own oddness where you have what they call the notch or you know where the where the all the different cameras in the face detection and all that sort of thing is is stuck into the very top of the device and there's this weird cutout that cuts out the middle of your screen effectively and causes all kinds of problems especially when you consider that if you turn that into landscape mode all the different UIs that have to adjust for that sort of thing. So it does come with its problems is just I feel like now that that's It's kind of out there and it's been out there. It sets a pretty high bar for what devices should look like, I guess. Yeah. I was really surprised by that actually that they didn't go all the way. I know that there's constraints to fit all that equipment above that, but I was really surprised to see them notch it out like that. I just can't imagine where Steve is still running at the helm here, that this would have passed muster. I don't know. It's just kind of a surprising move to me that they wouldn't just keep a clean line on top there. - I would agree. I think, you know, to be honest with you, I don't have any intention of buying the iPhone 10 and that's coming from somebody who's owned, gosh, I think I'm on pride. My fourth iPhone at this point, maybe fifth. So I'm definitely a fan of the series. I'm definitely a fan of Apple in general, but I'll be honest with you, I feel like they're, I guess to be fair, I feel like phone hardware is stagnant in general at this point. - Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. I think it's impressive to see Google be more competitive in the space. Like they've made some really great strides, but they're not really introducing a whole lot of new technology here. Like they're just getting up to speed with what's already been presented by others in the space. - Well, I mean, you have the squeezy effect, right? - Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know how much I'm gonna use the squeeze. I've done it a few times, it feels a little weird. I don't really care. I don't know. - What does it even do? Like what's the function of squeeze or is it different per app or what is it supposed to do? I haven't read a whole lot about this. - I think at this point, all I've gotten it to do is just bring up the Google Assistant. So it's just kind of a shortcut to the Google Assistant. Maybe there's something in app that you could do with it, but I'm not sure if those APIs are available. So one of the big stories that's coming out about these phones, maybe not this one particular, I think it's more specific to the XL is that these things have all kinds of screen troubles. And I've been reading a number of articles and I read one today. I think it was from the verge that had some pretty powerful imaging that compared in contrast an iPhone, I would assume the eight because I don't think the X is available to the pixel to Excel and the color saturation was just complete crap. You were looking at some icons that were kind of at the top, middle of the screen. I think one was even a Google icon. They went from left to right, from the left corner to the center of the screen. There was about five icons and the Google ended up in the middle. That particular icon was just super muddy and dirty colored. It almost looks like it was supposed to be transparent, but it wasn't. And what was made it really bizarre was as they went from left to right there was, you know, pure white on the left. And as they moved toward the center, they just continued to get even more and more muddy. And it was really, I don't know, it's just really bizarre. I've heard some additional problems coming with screen burn in with those phones as well. I don't know if that's limited to just the XLR or if the, if the two is having that problem as well. I don't know. What do you know about that? I think it's just the two XLR at this point. anything, any reports of it happening on the, on the two. Yeah, at this point, I know, like some of those guys, like TNW and some others have, I think the verge had originally recommended, you know, a lot of recommendations to go all in on the XL and they've since retracted that and said, look, you know, like, aside from being a little smaller, like two is still at this point, the better phone. I mean, there aren't any problems with it to that extent, the screen or anything like that. Yeah, it's funny to look at. I'm looking at the Virg article right now and they have, they have like a little slider where you can kind of slide left to right the same image. One, one is kind of a screen grab of the iPhone and one is a screen grab of the pixel, pixel two XL and the XL version almost looks like you put some kind of crappy Instagram filter or something on top of it. It's, it's really dark and there's a lot of green tones to it. It's really, really bizarre. I don't-- I'd be curious to know what the screen problem is here, because another piece that they mentioned in this article is Google's response to this. And Google came out with the, well, nothing's wrong here. We actually did this on purpose. And we-- That's even worse. That's even worse. Yeah, I agree. And so they're basically saying, if they get a lot of negative feedback on the thing, they'll maybe reevaluate their position. but at this point, they're pretty much saying that, hey, this is okay, this is the way we wanted it. - Wow, it's hard to understand how that could be the case that it seems like it was maybe a bit rushed or somehow passed some QA, I don't know. It's such a big product launch and such a critical time for them in the phone space, even then a kind of baffle that it got to this point. - So not only that, there's supply constraints on this phone. and I believe also again for the Pixel 2 XL, I would imagine maybe for the same types of reasons, right? It's problems building the display, making the display work as expected or... - Yeah, I'm less familiar with that one. I'll say this, I know there's some delays right now on the white one, so across the board. Like I ordered the graphite or black or whatever the color is, you know, and that came, I ordered two phones at the same time. I ordered a white one for my wife, and I ordered the black one for me. And mine showed up today. I think hers is coming later on in the week or next week. So I know that that's one of the challenges right there. It was just with some of the white ones. They're being delayed as much as a month I heard. - Yep, you're absolutely right. As I read through this a little more, I lost my highlighting for my later, unfortunately. So yeah, it's specifically for the 64 gig model of the white pixel two. - Yeah. and for those that are delayed, Google is offering a free life case, which is normally a $40 value. Oh, so there you go. Hey, all right. I don't like so you better get on that. I don't like a case. I mean, it would be necessary for her because we'd be replacing phones probably every month, but I can identify with that. I'm the same way to be honest. If I didn't write a bike, I probably wouldn't have a case on mine either. And to be honest with you, I feel like that's something that you buy the phone for. You buy the phone for kind of the design, the feel, and putting a case on that, you lose all that. You lose the design, you lose the feel of the phone. You add a bunch of thickness. So I'm with you. I definitely would like, I prefer to not have a case. Yeah, that's right. I'm the same way. I've been that way because I was a big iPhone guy for a long time. and I probably would be if I didn't switch the phi. But yeah, I never understood that. I mean, for the price and the quality of the products, I always wanted to just have the bare metal. - Yeah, I agree. - Aluminium. - If you go. (laughs) What do you think are they ever gonna put an iPhone on Google Phi? I doubt it. - I doubt it. I don't see that happening anytime soon. It, you know, yeah, that's an interesting one. I don't see that happening. - I feel with the hardware push that Google's making into these pixels and trying to compete with Apple. I mean, it makes no sense for them to do that really at this point. It's unfortunate because I think that would bring just a truckload of people to their Google fry product. However, I don't feel like that's a money maker for them. I feel like the price point is an attraction to bring people to the Google platform. Yeah, I agree. And I've been on the project five for what, about a year and a half now. And a year and a half ago, two years ago, it was a really appealing option because you still had these really kind of, it was before the price shift started happening with some of the big guys. But now you have pretty competitive pricing coming from T-Mobile and AT&T's, it got different plans now, where it's really competitive. And so it's not as compelling anymore, I think to some of these, to switch these big carriers that come over, I like it because of the international travel that I do, for amount of international travel, and I can bring this thing anywhere. I've been on gosh, almost every continent with this thing, and I've had no problems from the UAE to France to Spain. It just works. And so that's a compelling reason for me, but otherwise I don't know if you're just a domestic phone user that there's really a compelling reason to switch at this point. I think I've evaluated it any number of times, even just for myself, because Christina will never switch from an iPhone. At this point, you know, through all my research, I look on Verizon who I'm on currently, and for me to drop off Verizon and to switch to Google Fi, you know, when you calculate the monthly cost plus, you know, say a monthly to month payment plan for a phone and that sort of thing, ultimately you end up coming up to about the same amount of money as it cost me to stay on the Verizon plan. So there's really not a huge benefit. I feel like the big benefit comes if you get two lines. So when you get two lines, then suddenly bam, like the second line really is only costing you, you know, maybe an additional $20 or whatever for the phone and then whatever data usage it is that they're using. So suddenly that's where I think the really extravagant savings come from. And so unfortunately for me, I really, really love the idea of the international roaming and in fact we use that a lot when we were in France recently via one of your data only sims which which was fantastic. Yeah. I certainly could switch to T-Mobile as well, but they're not the greatest carrier on the face of the earth in terms of coverage. I have been able to use Verizon pretty successfully with their $10 a month flex pass plan or whatever it's called. It's something to that effect. Pretty much any country you're in outside of North America. you can use a $10 a month or pay $10 a month and effectively let's you use your plan just as if you were in the United States. Yep. Not a bad deal and I think it's getting better. The prices are getting more competitive and you know already you see things where you get unlimited texts in Canada and Mexico and that sort of thing. So I think it's only a matter of time, very short amount of time before you'll have other international plans that are more competitive too. Yeah, I would agree. I think the carriers are definitely pushing harder and harder and getting in more and more price competitive. In fact, I think the same plan that I was kind of mentioning earlier with Verizon anywhere in Mexico or Canada, I think it's five bucks instead of 10 bucks a day. So we've definitely used that a number of times as we travel up to Vancouver or that sort of thing. So yeah. Amazon is moving campuses or wants to create another campus. HQ2. Yeah, HQ - that's right those proposals all had to come in what was the deadline? I think it was Monday the Monday Was there a deadline? I didn't know there was a deadline. I just knew they hadn't decided on one yet, right? Well supposedly yeah, that's supposedly they haven't decided yet I think that they probably knew before their competition where they were gonna do But they just wanted to see what kind of deals they could get But they have a lot of options 238 proposals came in across Looks like all of North America. So you had some looks like there was some activity in Mexico I know there were some entries in Canada and then quite a few in the US - even I think it looks like the US only about what Seven states maybe weren't included. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's a huge they have a map on their site about this and it's pretty much all Dark green except for just a few places. They won't be there. They're you know any opportunities in North Dakota or South Dakota, Montana. I think they wanted to have a little bit more going on up there. So I've kind of kept my head in the sand about this. I've heard a lot about it. Like the you know, the city that was going to change its name to Amazon and you know all these crazy ideas that these people have to try and lure Amazon to to their city. What I mean aside from it just being you know, Amazon headquarters too, what is the story here? They're just trying to Get proposals from every city to find out who will give them the best tax deal the past, you know space What's what are they looking for? Yeah, that's right. I mean, that's what I understand. It's a few of those things I think you know What you're probably more in tune with in Seattle is just like this. I think there's a little resistance to the Political climate there towards big business and I know that they've been you know less than pleased with just their treatment in Seattle It's kind of being the big corporation that came and you know, transformed the city and in not such a positive way and and and It's been difficult for them. I think it's been expensive. It's been a challenge and I think so there's that side of it as well as just the amount of Hires, I mean there's only so many Engineers that they can grab in the Northwest in Seattle. I think that's another issue so that to have something in another geography where they can grow another 50,000 employees, it's gonna be hard to do that just in Seattle. Yeah, I think it makes it makes pretty good sense and I think they already have, you know, a number of distribution centers where they obviously, you know, hire quite a few people but I think for them to have, you know, a technological hub elsewhere in the country, I think makes a lot of sense and I think there's quite a number of, you know, smaller areas that are growing rapidly, you know, even even our former hometown of Omaha, you know, has a pretty large tech scene even since we've left. So I mean, there's a number of perceived smaller cities that I think could could house Amazon pretty well and provide them a lot of land for expansion, a lot of cheap land for that matter, as well as as a lot of capable employees. Yeah, that's the other part of it too, is just being landlocked. They're, you know, they've taken over South Lake Union and there's just not a lot of other room to grow affordably anyway but that didn't seem to stop them from that area but yeah it'll be nice there's other opportunities to really to do this to grow where do you think they're gonna go what's your what's your pick if you had to say yeah I don't even know enough about this conversation to really to really speak on it to be honest with you being in Seattle I know that that they're here. I'm a very big Amazon supporter. (laughs) I use them for fricking everything. I mean, I order everything from them. It seems like, you know, I have quite a number of friends that work for them. I hate to lose anything that they can offer. You know, it'd be great to have, you know, everything of theirs in Seattle, but that's not really a feasible argument to make. You know, I live in this city. I know the woes that we have or water locked on multiple sides. So the city can't continue to expand at a rate that's fast enough to accommodate all the tech employees that are coming in for Amazon and Google and all the other people that are trying to build huge technological presences here. - Yep. - So I think it's a good move. I don't know where they end up. I really don't. I think they need to make sure it's in a technological center. I don't think they're gonna reinvent. They're not gonna create another Seattle somewhere else. I guess there needs to be some tech talent there to begin with. It'll be interesting to see what effect it does have on the city of Seattle because they can move some of those operations away. Effectively, it becomes kind of like Boeing is to some degree where Boeing operates in many states and they continually threaten to move services to other states unless the state of Washington I'll give them different tax breaks or perks or those sorts of things. Yeah, and that's what this sounded like a little bit too, is I think being as forward thinking as they are as a company, I'm pretty confident that they've already narrowed it down or even have that place in mind and just want to have a little competition to see what kind of spifts they can get and how much money they can save on top of what they would have already done by moving in somewhere else. Yeah, I've heard a lot of speculation. I mean, Austin is definitely on the short list. It kind of, like you said, already a bit of a tech presence. You know, there's a lot of action in Austin right now in tech, a lot of companies moving down there. And there's a lot of land. I mean, they have vast amounts of land to expand. So that's a possibility. I've also heard speculation too that Toronto is one of the candidates and that would be a good one. I know they have this thing in, I don't know what I was talking to, Gao that works in HR for Amazon was telling me for H1B applicants that are coming in overseas and they're waiting for their application to be accepted that Amazon, a lot of times, how's those guys in Vancouver, maybe for two or three years until the application gets approved and then bring them in. So Toronto could be an appealing option to say, well, we're just gonna, you know, especially with the current political climate here, where H1Bs might be a little harder to come by, then I could see how a Canadian option might make more sense. You've got a more permanent foothold up there that you can bring a bunch of people in and kind of skirt around some of the challenges in the United States, getting into United States. - I think the Austin option is, having been there just recently, we were there, I don't know, three weeks ago, four weeks ago, something like that for a conference at Christina was attending and holy moly, even in the, Even in the probably gosh, what's it been maybe seven years or so since I had been there, maybe even six, the sheer amount of traffic in that city for the size is tremendous. I was completely shocked really when I was there. Yeah, it's just insane. And a lot of it is from this growth. You know, they are a very, very growing city. They're kind of one of the faster growing cities, especially in the tech sector. - Yeah, I was completely shocked. I would use Uber, for instance, or even lift, three o'clock in the afternoon or two o'clock in the afternoon, though they would all be on a surge pricing, just 'cause there's not enough people, and there's people wanting to get everywhere. - What about public transit? Is that lean? - I know there's some pretty good bus system. I did use it the first time that I was in Austin. In fact, I remember being much more technologically advanced than Seattle's, which isn't a real high bar. But yeah, I felt like the public transit was okay. I don't remember if there being any trains or anything to that effect, I strictly only used buses there. But they definitely have many different ride sharing programs. They have Uber lift and then they have, I think two others that kind of came in and ruled the roost for a little bit while they had kicked out both Uber and lift for some amount of time. - Well, interesting, I didn't know that. - So, yeah. - They all drive of course for all of them, but there were a couple that I had never even heard of. They're apparently Austin specific. - Yeah, yeah. I don't know, for me, the weather is too extreme. I guess I'd be indoors a lot of the time if I was there. I don't really have a desire to go back and do a more extreme climate coming from the Silicon prairie as you were talking about earlier. Like I go back now and it's really difficult, extremes for me, so I don't know. Austin, maybe not so bad in December, January, but I'd have a hell of a time being there in July and August. Yeah, you get the, you get both extremes, right? You get the insane humidity and you, and heat and then you get the, uh, the potential for, for some pretty extreme cold sometimes. But when I was there, it was pretty, it was pretty, uh, pretty mild in terms of temperature. I think it was 80 degrees or something like that. And pretty humid. It was trying to rain most days. So, you know, it wasn't too bad while I was there, but I, I would agree with you. I wouldn't choose to live in that environment regularly. Yeah. We'll be very interesting to see out on folds, though. I think for the most part, they had a pretty broad response, 238 proposals. I mean, that's pretty good in 54 states. So 54 states, provinces, districts, and territories across North America. I think there was only a few stories of people as you're saying they didn't want Amazon coming in, but by and large, pretty wide support. Was, I mean, this is gonna be a stupid question, perhaps, but is Seattle submitted proposal? - Oh yeah, well, I don't, oh, that is a good question. I know that Tacoma did, and I don't know if it was a joint thing that Seattle and Tacoma did. I know Seattle wanted to negotiate with them at least on how they could expand, but I'm not sure if they had a formal proposal. I know Tacoma did though. - Well, moving on, let's talk about Elon Musk, who seems to be kind of like everywhere these days. I don't know how much you've seen about his solar panel work. He's kind of got solar everything anymore. He's got solar roofs that they just unveiled. Semi-recently, I think you can even purchase them now. - And it looks like a roof. Like it's clay tiles or something like that. I mean, look of it. - Yeah, exactly. They have multiple different styles to match different types of housing. So I know they have kind of a more traditional, what would you call those tar kind of based singles. They also have kind of a more terracotta look version as well. So they have a bunch of different aesthetics. I guess you might say that you can get these things in and they're just all individual solar panels that then door energy in their Tesla power wall units that they also sell. Very cool. There's an article from TechCrunch where well, first of all, I guess Elon said, at some point on Twitter that Puerto Rico is pretty devastated from all the hurricane disaster. And he recommended that his solar power and power wall system could be of a pretty helpful to the country and to generate their own power and not have to rely on building or repairing the existing power grid. Well it turns out that they already have this on the ground and set up in part in Puerto Rico and it's already just about ready to draw power. So it's pretty awesome to see them, you know, A, making good on their promises, I guess. You know, he has a Elon has a pretty good history of saying some pretty crazy things or at least they seem crazy at the time. But that's one of the things I think that's really exciting about him is he's able to deliver and I think this is a pretty good example of of him being able to deliver and the power that's being generated by these these solar panels that are in Puerto Rico are going to be used to power a hospital at least to start with and then continue to expand from there so I think that's pretty cool. This is an awesome story and I saw that photo it looked like they were taking over a parking lot near the hospital or something like that. I was amazed at just the amount of progress in a short amount of time. It wasn't only a couple weeks ago, I mean, shortly after the disaster that they started talking about this as an option and I had just seen a photo, I don't know if it was this hospital, but it was one of the hospitals where they were actually doing surgery with power from their cell phone batteries, like the lights using the LED lights on their cell phone to light up the room, not getting a lot of support from the government. And so to see these guys come in and already have this much set up, it's pretty impressive. Yeah, it's very impressive. And they're doing a lot to help them as much as they possibly can. Elon himself donated $250,000 of his own money. They've kind of put on hold their electric semi-project, which they were, I think, right about to unveil very, very recently here. And they're trying to move all that money into pop that can help Puerto Rico and help this effort with getting solar panels and getting power to that area. 'Cause I see on Twitter, I follow a number of people who have friends in the area and they keep retweeting stuff that's pretty horrifying and just about how many people don't have power and the horrible things they have to do to go get clean water and just kind of basic, life basics, it's pretty, it's pretty saddening. - Yeah, yeah, it is. There's not a lot of positive news coming out of Puerto Rico, but this is a really cool story and really exciting times for clean energy for Tesla and just some of the things that they've been trying to promote. This is a great way to get that started. The positive spin on something that's not so positive. - Agreed. Challenges of working remote. There it is. There it is. - Yeah, so you've been, since you moved down to San Francisco and are still working for, quote, wizard company, we both work for. You've been working remote and have had some challenges, I guess, to say the least, especially for-- - Challenges. - Oh, go ahead. - Go ahead. - Yeah, well, challenges, yes, and opportunities. I think that there's a little bit of both. It's a mixed bag for sure. It's not my first time working remote, but things are a little different this time. But it's definitely, yeah, it's a mixed bag. - So I know one of the first things that we kind of had when you were gone is there was a communication breakdown almost immediately, and it was kind of really, really apparent. We kind of already knew it was a problem, but even before you left, but as you were in San Francisco and trying to communicate with the rest of the team, it became kind of embarrassingly obvious at that point. So I think, you know, the first thing you need to do is to put in place the tools and the processes to ensure efficient communication amongst not only you, but you and the rest of the team to make sure that you know what everybody's doing in terms of projects at the office and then those people still have kind of an eye on you, I guess, to some degree to make sure that they know that A, you're still there and know what you're working on. And I want to continue to communicate with you on various projects that you're working on. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's a cultural thing. In order for it to be successful, it's got to be rooted in the culture. And we knew going into this that I was going to be somewhat of a guinea pig, kind of a test pilot because our company is a, I'm a sure business, but it still operates as a startup in a lot of facets. So, we have about 100-ish employees, but we're used to working out of a central office, and we're used to being able to collaborate by walking over to each other's desks and having conversations with a few exceptions. We did open up a satellite office, and we have now another couple of people working remote. So it's starting to evolve, but in the beginning it's been very much about front and center face-to-face kind of collaboration. We didn't have tools for that. The initial shock of being away was a little tough. Not having the right tools, not having training on the tools. As the other part of it too, it's just not everybody knew how to set up. Didn't have a webcam, didn't have a microphone, or didn't know how to set them up to create a meeting. So there was just a lot of areas where this was kind of like destined to fail in the beginning, but I think we've made some progress. It's interesting to see, especially from a non-see the non-technical or the business folks, struggle with these types of things. I think one of the very first problems you ran into is somebody not even knowing how to add a meeting into an email or into adding a Skype meeting into an email. It's fascinating to hear those types of things because I even hear that from Christina as well in her company that blew somebody's mind the other day that they could just click a button and outlook and it would automatically append a meeting of some sorts, you know, a video conferencing link to the email and they could just send it that way instead of having to go out and somehow manually generate that. It was just interesting and a kind of eye opening as to how much we take some of those things for granted. Yeah, exactly. And you and I, you know, we're more tech savvy and we're already pursuing those types of things on our own. And so I think there's a level of familiarity there, but there's a lot of folks that just have never had a need for that sort of thing. And the training is just, we don't really do, you know, that's kind of an area that we could really improve on is just training across the board on how to use these systems. There's a lot of assumptions that we come in and just know how to do this and everybody knows how to do that. But that's not the case. And so I'm really trying to champion, you know, a more remote scenario. I want to really champion that we all learn how to use these tools and these products and and you know fortunately we have a great IT staff that is starting to really make those changes. It's just going to take some time. So you're about what are you three weeks in at this point I would say right? Yeah, yep exactly just I have a month here. So what would you say so far if you were to say like the best thing and the worst thing about working remote, what would you have to say for that at three weeks in? Yeah, it's a little tricky at this point because it's still been in flux. It hasn't been clearly, you know, it's still taking shape. So I'm, I really was looking forward to getting away from some of the drive by type distractions that happened in the office pretty frequently, you know, like even having headphones on, still getting tapped on the shoulder, that kind of thing. I thought for sure, like that I would just have vast amounts of time here to do things. And that's not necessarily case. It requires a same or maybe even more discipline away from the office than it did in the office. Just because now there is more text messages floating around or we use Teams as an organization. So lots of stuff, lots of Teams activity, whether it's just like the general channels or one-on-one stuff, that thing's going off all the time. So it's kind of trying to figure out when it's OK to be away and turn that off and when I need to be present and be tuned in. So I'm still trying to figure that out. I think it's been really nice. I haven't, I was worried that I was going to lose contact with people that I was going to be kind of forgotten and that hasn't been the case. I've actually been more connected to people than I thought I would and I don't really feel that at all. It's good. And I think to your point about notifications, don't you have some tooling that you've set up to pretty much just put yourself on a do not disturb mode more or less so that notifications of all kinds just kind of cease from both maybe your mobile device and from your desktop or your laptop or whatever you're using. Yeah, I do have a few tools I use for that. You know, Windows 10 has, or do not disturb mode which works pretty well. They're quiet hours feature. So I've taken advantage of quiet hours and then yeah, I'll just set like a do not disturb on my phone too. I've been pretty lax about it though the first few weeks just because I want to be available. I want that habit to be established that I'm reachable, that I'm it should be no different to get a hold of me here than in the office. And so I think that I've done a pretty good job of establishing that. I'm very responsive, make sure that I get back to people almost immediately, you know, even within a couple minutes, not right away. But it's something that I'm probably going to try to factor in a little bit. I'm going to try to schedule it a little bit so that I can be heads down, just focus on some code. Even if it was just for an hour or two, I'd like to just get a couple hours of chunks there that I can be offline and working. And I haven't really figured out that cadence yet. I feel like that's a pretty hard line to tow, you know, going silent versus, you know, kind of responding immediately because you kind of have that push and pull relationship with you know you're away so you know easily forgotten versus you know if you are responding all the time you're you're obviously you know at your desk you're doing things so it's very easy for people to under or feel like you're actively working whereas if you're you know and do not disturb mode people are like oh where's that guy he must be out having a having a beer somewhere at the bar or whatever it may be so I totally get that that's a hard line to tow and I I don't envy that. - Yeah, it's a little difficult. There are some natural times for that type of thing, though, I found that generally in the afternoon, it gets really quiet, so a lot of activity, and in the early morning, I mean, that's the benefit of being remote too, is that I get up pretty early. I can actually knock out a few hours worth of code before people even show up in the office if I want to, so I've done that a few times as well. And that kind of works well for me. takes some of my best, where my brain is fresh and my thinking is at its clearest and write code in the morning. So I've been building that habit, you know, almost first thing. Get up, get the coffee going and sit down and actually crunch some code. Leave the email closed. Don't even open that up for a few hours and then when people start rolling in eight o'clock, eight, thirty nine, nine, thirty, that's when I try to go through the email, start having some conversations and we have our standups and that sort of thing. And that tends to work pretty well. I think that's a pretty good approach. Keeping yourself pretty focused in the early morning hours, I used to do the same thing. I would come in and I would pretty much beat everybody into the office and yeah, you get an hour to an hour and a half or so of work and it's insane how productive you are during that hour and hour and a half of focus time. That's something that I've actually kind of gotten away from and I really, really missed doing that and I think that's something that I'm gonna make it a goal for myself to kind of get back into that rhythm 'cause it's amazing how just people moving around the office or just talking amongst themselves or you messing around with notifications on your phone or on your coming from teams or Slack or whatever it may be. It's amazing how disruptive that is to your focus. - It's a huge distraction. I think more so than we realize, and I was just reading an article in the Harvard Business Review. They have a whole section. It's legitimate. And there's a whole section right now on distractions and on staying focused. So it's clearly a hot topic. I mean, it's nothing new. But yeah, it's surprising. Some of the numbers are really surprising for me. What do they say? Performance drops as much as 50%. IQ drops, 15 points when you're multitasking. And so it doesn't seem like it in the moment sometimes that it's such a big deal. like, "Hey, I can respond to this text or do something." But for me, I notice it more when I've got my headphones on and I'm in the zone and I'm actually working on a solution and someone taps me on the shoulder and that's pretty disruptive. But any of these things can cause the same. There isn't really a differentiation, I guess, of the type of distraction. The distraction itself doesn't matter how minor or how intermittent it is, but it's definitely causing us to suffer in our performance. So the best way to deal with that is to just have chunks of time where we can be in solitude, where we can turn everything off and just be heads down. I feel like when I was younger, I used to have a little bit better, easier time multitasking and continuing, I guess, in the zone or being able to continue to focus in blocks of time, but I feel like as I get older that that has dissipated in disruptions in my focus time are far more disruptive than they used to be, or at least I perceive them to be far more disruptive than they used to be. - I've noticed that as well. I don't know how great I've ever been at it. I think that yeah, I feel that it takes me more time now to get back into something, but I don't know if I've ever been really that good at it. I think that's one of those things that are kind of out there when it was like the mythical things that we can multitask and keep everything at the same level. And I know at least right now, I just, I noticed that that's just not the case. Like as much as I want it to be and as much as I think if I practice, it'll get better. It really, there's no substitute for just having a singular focus. - That's fair, it might be me in just thinking, you know, being young and thinking I was the shit and I could do it over the hill I wanted, I don't know. (laughing) - Well, I think too, part of it is just that we've evolved in our careers to a point where we're a little more valuable, hopefully now than we were then. And I think that there's a lot of other things tugging at our short sleeves. You know, there's, I mean, being at a place for any significant amount of time, like now your hands have been on a few different projects. And so anytime anything comes up with any of those things like, you know, I'm getting pulled in for that or you're getting pulled in for that. And so I think that's part of it too is just there's more demand for the more valuable you are at a place for your time. But I would say this, I think it's a great thing. It's not for everybody. It takes a does take a tremendous amount of planning and Stratigery, I don't know Making shit up here, but I it's not it's not Something for everybody and and it took me a while the first time that I had done that to really build a discipline around it And so I knew going into it this time. It wasn't going to be just that panacea that people in the office fantasize about like yeah, I'm gonna be home I'm gonna be so productive and get so much work done that can't be the case But it's not usually without some kind of regimen and some kind of strategic plan Because it could be very easy just unravel and and start blurring the lines of work in home and now you're you know I know people that refuse to do anything related to home during work I'm not gonna change the load of laundry. I'm not going to unload the dishwasher that sort of thing because is for some people, that's the opener. And then next thing you know, like you're not shutting off until 12 o'clock at night. And you're never really focused. You're never really in work mode and never really present at home. It turns into this kind of blurred gray area where you're kind of home working all the time and in between. So yeah, that's a real concern of mine. I'm working on a routine that'll allow me to just keep work, work, and keep home for home. And that's not easy. I definitely have a friend here in the Seattle area that used to work from home and had the exact same comments to say is that the line gets blurred and once it's blurred it just keeps bleeding. And so you've got to kind of set up barriers to prevent yourself from allowing that kind of blurring of the lines to occur and work has to stay work and home has to stay home. And for him it was actually even a physical barrier. So, you know, his office was his work and that was in closed room and that's the place that he did work and he stayed in there until work was completed and he never went out into the house and then once he was completed with work he would go out and do his other things and so not only from not only a mental barrier of what it is you can and can't do it with more of a physical one for him. Yeah, I think that's a pretty ideal setup if you can pull that off. I know that I would love that. I'm actually I only have a one bedroom so I don't have the luxury of that but you know know, it's doable, but it just takes more intention for it to work for sure. So I've been interested in this topic for a little while because you've had some pretty, pretty good results here, I think in the last, I don't know how long you've been doing this exactly, but you've been doing intermittent fasting. I think it's even referred to as time restricted feeding, right? It sounds like it's more what you do because intermittent fasting, as I was reading, is more of kind of a broadcast term. Yes. So yeah, tell me about this because I think you've what what are you down now about 15 pounds at this point? Well, yeah, that's about right. I just just shy of that anyway, and I I really stumbled upon this by accident so it was actually While we were out in France on our recent, you know vacation and you're You're wedding, you know, congratulations Again by the way, but it was it was really like on that trip That I started looking into this. I think what happened was so so there's a group on Facebook It's the HVM and intermittent fasting group will have links You know, I don't know where you're gonna put those at the end of the podcast or in the notes somewhere That's right in the show notes. Yep, so we'll have that in the show notes But yeah, I found out about this group through some article While I was traveling and it caught my eye and it was it originated it was a group of well Well, the concept has been around a lot longer, but this group started in San Francisco. It was a group of people that were trying to support, as is a support group for intermittent fasting. As you said, time, time control leading. Is that what you called it? Time restricted feeding. At least that's what Wikipedia seems to indicate. Yeah, time restricted. I mean, I think to the newcomer, and I certainly fell in this category too. Like you hear that term and you think starvation right away. I think that's like a natural place to start as a think, oh, you're fasting. Oh, you're not eating. Oh, you're starving yourself. What is going on? And really that's far from what's what's going on. And so yeah, there's many different ways to do it. I think the most notable story out there and intermittent fasting was that there is this gentleman that was. I don't remember. He was obese. I don't remember his exact weight somewhere in the ballpark of like he was somewhere north of 450, 480 pounds, something like that. Yeah. and and got turned on to intermittent fasting and under, you know, his doctor's supervision, he didn't eat for about 386 days just over a year. Did not eat a meal. He did have some vitamins and supplements and, you know, sodium as well, like some drink salt water, I believe, just to make sure that he was getting some of those things. But, but wasn't eating and at the end of the whole thing, you know, was somewhere in a healthy way. And I don't remember again the final weight. It was like maybe one 50 to 180 somewhere in there. But he was a healthy weight. He was no longer overweight, even or anything like that. Healthy BMI. And in perfect health. I mean, that's more important too. I didn't come out with zero muscle mass, didn't come out with any kind of health problems. Actually, it got out of a lot of the, almost all the health issues that he had. And so, pretty extreme case. But compelling nonetheless that you could actually go that long. I didn't know your body could go that long about food. And the idea simply is this, if you're overweight or you're obese, like you have enough fat calories stored, you're not starving yourself. Your body is just utilizing those fat calories, converting that fat into energy and burning it. And that's what sustains you throughout a fast. So yeah, that's kind of the way I understand it. I found out about it while we were gone away. And I've, you know, been at my heaviest ever. I used to be a cross-competitive cross-country runner and I was a lot lighter than in college. And my eating and my drinking habits didn't change, but I stopped exercising and then bam, next thing I know, I've put on a lot of weight. And so I really wanted to kind of do something about it. I have gone to other extremes before of juicing and that sort of thing and had positive results, but it wasn't really suitable for me to do that in a social setting because now I'm very restricted on what I can eat and where I can go. And I like, I mean, being in San Francisco, being in Seattle, I love going out to eat and doing that sort of thing. So that didn't, it was a conflict for me. And this seemed to be an intermediate way that I could actually enjoy those things and still reap the benefits. Yeah. So as I understand it, the way that you're behaving with the time restricted feeding is your kind of an on and again off again. So there's only certain hours of the day, usually in one big chunk that you can eat and then kind of a wider chunk that you're not supposed to is that correct? Yeah, so we all do it already. If you think about it, when was your last meal today? I mean, you probably had dinner. What time did you have dinner? Uh, gosh, probably shortly after six, I would guess. Okay, so you had dinner at six. Maybe you'll have a little snack after that. But maybe you're done. Are you done eating for the rest of the night at this point? It's about what? It's the left or nine o'clock. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so you know from from eight or nine o'clock until you have breakfast in the morning, I mean you might go up to 12 hours without having eaten any food while you're sleeping and and you know getting ready in the morning and that's the work thing. So we already do it. We already do it for some period of time. The idea of those usually extend that and in a popular way, there's a few different ways people do it, but a very common one is what's referred to as 16.8 and the ideas that you fast for 16 hours and you eat during an eight hour window. So for me, what I generally do is I'll finish eating around the same time as you. I'll have dinner and maybe have a snack afterwards, but then I'll skip breakfast, break fast breakfast, right? So I'll skip that meal and then wait until generally like noon or two o'clock and I'll eat in the eight hour window around that. So if it's noon, then I'll eat from noon to eight to a clock to 10. I don't usually eat that late though. So it maybe it's only a six hour feeding window on those days. But just extending it, you know, to a 16.8, I've been able to lose, yeah, about 15 pounds and it's been about a month. So pretty, pretty quick results. And I find that it's easier for me to just abstain from food in that fasting window that it is for me to try to be calorie restricted. There's too much of cravings for me or a yo-yo or I eat a little bit and I want to eat more And so it's just easier for me personally just to stop and a lot of people have this experience cold turkey and then When you do get hungry around 12 or two then bam like have eat healthy foods You know, you're not gonna eat more calories generally speaking in that shorter window So even though you might be like ready to dive into a big plate Over time, research has shown that people don't actually, they're still calorie restricted as if they would have eaten all day long. Breakfast lunch, dinner, snack. I think the reason when you first told me about this that I found this really interesting was because several years ago, I guess this has been gosh, seven years ago, eight years ago at this point. Now I lost, I don't know, 50 pounds, maybe not quite 50 pounds, pretty close. And during that time, what I was practicing was more of a calorie restriction type diet, doing the calories in, calories out, counting that sort of thing, just trying to be generally better, better than worse. But the more and more I thought about it after reading your article here, or some of the articles about intermittent fasting, is that I was actually doing this without knowing that I was doing it. During that time, I was actually not eating breakfast most often, and would usually go into lunch and have a reasonably decent lunch, which actually usually ended up just being like a, let's say a naked juice or some kind of a smoothie-type beverage and sometimes I would have a yogurt on the side of that or something to that effect. And then I would go until dinner time at which time we would have a protein and just a whole heaping pile of veggies and then I wouldn't eat again until you know noon the next day. So really in practice I was actually practicing this without even knowing that that's what I was doing and and it's very, very possible that that this was an additional large contributor to some of that that way you lost, which I thought was actually really fascinating. It's really interesting. A lot of this idea of fasting goes contrary to what we've been told through public education around meals. I mean, there's a lot out there now that says, you know, eat three solid meals a day and have three snacks in order to keep your metabolism going the whole time. Like we need to keep feeding ourselves. So it goes against some of the common beliefs about how we eat and when we eat the frequency and that sort of thing. And so I was naturally skeptical at first just because I mean, I've heard that breakfast is the most important meal of the day. So I should get up and have something eat right away, kickstart that metabolism, right? And what they've demonstrated and what studies have shown is that actually the opposite happens is that your metabolism can even increase during a fast because going back to our caveman days and going back to our roots, that was something that was a much more regular part of our reality. We had periods of intense feasting when we actually had food available and then maybe more dramatic periods of fasting, maybe days even where there was nothing like no catch, nothing to eat, Nothing that we could get get our hands on and so our bodies evolved to adapt to that And so we're used to going for longer periods with with nothing and then when we get food we get it and in order to keep us Alert and alive to be able to catch food when we were in a long fast Our bodies actually would would give us more energy and our metabolism would increase so that we could be on high alert for For finding food sources. So it's really interesting contrary to what we've been we've been told but the reverse is true. Yeah, it's fascinating. I think if you're interested in doing this, I'll link in the show notes. There's a really, really great article that you link to from Dr. Jason Fung, who has a really fantastic Q&A session, kind of a frequently asked questions that I actually I was reading through and there's actually some really great responses in there. So I'll make sure to link to that in the notes if you're interested in learning more about intermittent fasting. It's worth a look and it's just really interesting stuff too. without getting into it, but just the how insulin works and how our body responds that way and the benefits that come from fasting and giving our body a chance to get into maintenance mode and clean up and it's very interesting subject. So I would encourage you to take a look. - I think that about wraps it up for today. You can contact us online on all the social media. The show's Twitter is @coffeecodecast. You can follow Mike on Twitter @PribeMamaMike. That's PR-AGMA-MIKE. You can follow me on Twitter @KylePJohnson. And if you have a question, go ahead and shout out at us with #askthenumber3c. The website, at least the temporary website, is coffeecodecast.lysvyn.com. That's libsyn.com. And you can subscribe to the podcast through all the normal channels, soundclouds, your Google Play music, iTunes, etc. Leave us a message, rate us on any of those services we'd love to hear from you and thanks again for listening. [Music]