47 min read

60: Recruiting (Christina Vidauri)

Kyle’s wife and Sr. Technical Recruiter at Big Fish Games joins us to discuss recruiting, agency vs. in house recruiting, interview processes, unintentional bias, project based interviewing, collecting feedback, building real relationships, analyzing market data and so much more.
60: Recruiting (Christina Vidauri)
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60: Recruiting (Christina Vidauri)
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  • Cold Open
  • Introductions
  • In-House vs. Agency Recruiting
  • Christina’s Path to Recruiting
  • Hiring Manager Relationships
  • Project Based Interviewing
  • Collecting Feedback
  • Building Real Relationships
  • Do’s & Don’ts on LinkedIn and Resumes
  • Working with Agency Recruiters
  • Using Market Data
  • Negotiation

Full Transcript

 [Music] Welcome everybody to episode 60 of the Coffee & Codecast. Tech podcast where we talk about neither coffee or code. I'm Kyle Johnson. Hey Kyle, I'm Mike she hand here today We're gonna be talking about that's an interesting topic some strange foods discussion. Good. I'm glad I like talking about strange food the frozen you the ULOG that sounds fun Coffee and code cast also referred to is the sign fell of casts the show about nothing nothing and everything nothing and everything That's a wonderful combination. I thought yeah, I thought it was a great description. I liked that. It's very accurate actually very accurate Thanks. So I bought that a little bit and uh, thanks to camera. That was Kim. Yeah big shout out to Kim. That is amazing And our main topic for today very excited about this a very main topic today is technical recruiting and Who better to have on the show than senior technical recruiter Christina Vardari's on the show today? - Hey, welcome Christina. - Hi. - Thanks for coming on the show. - Thanks for having me. - This is awesome. I was hoping that we could get Christina on. We weren't planning on it today, but it happened to work out very well. - The weather forced her hand. - Yeah, the weather. - The bus never came. I was cold. - Oh, the bus didn't come. Oh, why? I don't understand that down here. There's not a lot of action. - Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it's like outlying areas preventing buses from getting into town, but the bus stop wasn't even telling you when buses were coming. - That's really helpful, especially when it's nasty outside. - Yeah, it's very windy right now. - It's 39 and windy. Yeah, I heard that they were supposed to be gusts up to 60 miles an hour. - Yeah, I believe it. - Wow, that's crazy. - So it's great to have a recruiter on the show. I've been wanting to get you on the show for a long time because I talked to you all the time about recruiting things. - Yeah. - You're the only person that thinks this is great. - It is great. - Oh, I think it's great too. By the way, you didn't wish Mike a happy number one. She's being friendly today. That's so much better in person. It feels very personalized. I like that. We have a lot of we have a lot of fun banter on the show for you tonight too. Just being a hard time. Yeah, it should be wonderful. What do you mean? He's only one that's excited about it. Are you not excited about? No, I feel like the public really isn't as excited to hear about recruiting. - Oh. (laughs) - As y'all, yeah. You know, we get into interesting conversations, but I've done plenty of panels and other things where you think there's gonna be a lot of questions and then there's just like crickets. - So. - I think oftentimes the problem is, you don't know what to ask though, 'cause I don't think until these things come up, like I'm like, oh, I never thought about that. But like once they actually come up in real life experience, then it's much more interesting. I just wouldn't know what the questions to ask you and a panel would be. - Yeah, I mean, I think that's fair, But mostly people only want me to look at a resume or tell them if they're getting paid enough. And then that's the end of the conversation. Just the tip of the iceberg stuff. But I think that's fair from an outsider's perspective. That's what they see as a recruiting function. That's the only pieces of recruiting that they interact with. Yeah, once people actually start having to hire their own team, which a lot of people in our life are getting to that stage of their career, then they start to have a lot more questions in terms of best practices or what I've seen in my career and what they can expect or what's appropriate based on maybe some types of roles don't have the best social skills and whatnot. - We may have some anecdotal examples later, it's about dues and don'ts of the interview process, not go? - I think there might be some of that coming up. That'll be fun. We'll talk about that a little bit later too on the show. Based on our own experience. (laughing) But I do agree with you. It's very interesting. The more I've gotten to know, I think I have been pretty ignorant. I've been recently in management, so I didn't have to deal with this before on this level. And so the more we've had conversations about it, I've learned, I feel like I've learned a lot from your talks. So I'm very excited for this today. And we have a lot to cover. We didn't formally put the questions together because, you know, that's how we roll on the show here. Unprepared. Shocker. Yeah. Shocker. I mean, we didn't know we were having a special guest till about 15 minutes ago. That's a fair point, too. I've never seen any show notes, so super prepared. Yeah. The format is really awesome. The show note format is great. I mean, we have a nice structure. We just tend to not to fill it up with anything before the show. So, I mean, if we did, it would be amazing. Yeah. Right, Kim? That's amazing. Sorry. That's amazing. That's telling my job. There you go. I think a good way to start here maybe is like, because I think before you got into recruiting and before I was exposed to it, like my idea of recruiting was kind of just like a typical guy that's going to just like slam people down a pipeline and throw as many people at you as you possibly could without much screening at all. And like you've kind of opened my eyes to a different type of recruiter, which I think you are. So I think maybe a good way to start would be just kind describe your process and how it is that you differ from maybe like a big agency that's just going to slam as many people home as they can. Sure, so I'm an in-house recruiter at Big Fish. So I work for the company. I think a lot of people's exposure to recruiters is typically through agencies. So you feel like cattle in those situations. I have a much more personalized approach to recruiting. I want to screen resumes, I want to do recruiting screens via phone, you know, focusing on technical. I try to really leverage my social EQ and make sure that I am a gatekeeper for the business as a whole because you can't necessarily rely on engineers to always evaluate the soft skills. And if you're not evaluating soft skills, I can definitely come back to hurt you down the line. So yeah, I want to review resumes. I want to talk to every candidate before I hand them off to a hiring manager. It doesn't always work out. When I have a rec load of, you know, 15 different roles with multiple heads for some of those roles. I don't have the capacity to phone screen everyone. But I still want to review resumes and I still want to assist hiring managers. Because at the end of the day, if I get to present an offer, I need to have some sort of relationship with that candidate or it's kind of really awkward. There's also two schools of thought with recruiting offering positions to candidate. Some companies, it falls on the hiring manager and the hiring managers want own it. You know, they're like, I'm managing this person, so I want to offer them the job. My school of thought, and another school of thought out there is recruiting handles the offers. And this is, I think, a little bit more strategic in terms of like, okay, now it's a business conversation. If this candidate counters, it's not going to be like personally held against them by a manager that is now like, oh, you were too good for my offer and then there's a weird dynamic once the person actually joins. So I like to be that buffer. I like to just absorb, say, you know, here's the max we're going to go up to, but I can offer anything up to that amount, whatever I think is necessary to get the person in the door. How soon do you have that conversation? Do you have it up front usually pretty early on in the process or? So yeah, I have two different conversations. I definitely try and have on the front end, like give me a range. On the front end, I'm happy with a range. I don't need to know your exact number. I'm going to guess you're aiming high. But I want to know your range just so that I can make sure, like, some soft engineers are going to ask for $250,000. That's not a number I will ever remotely you come close to and the companies that I have worked at. Go work at Oracle, go work at Microsoft, that's great, good for you. If you're looking for work-life balance, or you're looking for a challenge, let's talk. If you're just okay with making less than that, then let's talk. So I just like to save that conversation time on the front end and get that out of the way. Then at the end, I want to say, okay, we're happy. The interviews went really well. I hope you like us. Now let's get down to brass tax. We have different levers we can pull in the recruiting land, bonuses, sign on equity, all that kind of stuff. So tell me what it's going to take to get you in the door. I like that approach just because in my limited experience with hiring, I think I just jumped the gun a bit and got really excited to meet the candidate and then get on a phone screen and had a great phone screen and then found out afterward because they brought it up. like, oh yeah, by the way, I'm looking for X and it's like, we're not even in the same ballpark. And we just wasted a lot of time. - That happened to us as well recently. So yeah, I think it's a valuable thing to have the recruiter do that on the front end before they've even been passed off. So at least we know we're talking the same thing, right? - And I'll still, like, even if I think they're expensive, if I like them, let the hiring manager know and let them make the call. Like maybe that person's like, well, we really, we could up level it. We could make it a senior. and then we would be within band. I let them make that decision a lot of times, but if it's just worlds apart, then it's like, it's been nice. Call me in 10 years. - It's best of luck. Good for you. (laughing) - Yeah, because otherwise you're wasting everybody's time and it's not there's no point moving forward. How did you get into recruiting? - So I was in like accounting and bookkeeping before and I wanted to get it into startup land. So I had a friend on Facebook who was in Startup Land. He'd been at Swipe, which was acquired, or no, went public, and then was later acquired by Apple. So he did really well, obviously, in that scenario. And he posted, "Hey, a former Swipe employee is looking for a part-time office manager." And I was so desperate to get out of bookkeeping that I was like, "I'll take part-time just to get into the Startup Land." And it was a female VP. She'd been at several successful startups. And so I was like, I obviously want to be connected to that person in general. And so I asked him if I could talk to her. And I went in and I met the team. And they ended up actually offering me a full-time role, doing accounts payable office management, and whatever. I backed up the executive assistant to the CEO, all that kind of stuff. A few weeks in, they're like, hey, you still have capacity, I'm like, "Sure. Do you want to start coordinating for Dave, the recruiter?" Okay. So I start scheduling because being the backup to the EA, you would do that a lot anyway. And then it came down to it, "Okay, we're growing. We need to hire a full-time accountant, which can be you, or we need to hire someone to help Dave full-time, which can be you." Oh. So I looked at my boss and I said, "I'm really liking this recruiting thing, but what if I'm bad at it?" And she said, you're not going to be bad at it. But if you are, do you want to try sales? Do you want to try marketing? Like, we'll figure it out. Yeah, I got really lucky. So yeah, I went and worked for a day full time, which Kyle still likes to tease me that day was a very intimidating interview for me in the beginning. And I like walked away and was like, well, I don't know if I want to work for this company. And then I ended up working for him and having a really good personal relationship with him and he mentored me. So it all works out then. - At some point you hired him. - Yeah, I brought him on as a vendor at one point. - Oh, that's cool. Suppose that's what we all run into though, a little bit of that imposter syndrome, right? We've talked about that before. Yeah, big time. - What about like the thing that I think is most interesting to me because it's very applicable right now to me, especially is like the relationships that you cultivate with the hiring manager themselves. Like you don't just kind of throw candidates over the wall. You do a lot of fact finding ahead of time, so talk a little bit about that and how you approach that? - Yeah, so I'll do an intake session with any hiring manager that I'm going to be working with. I wanna know about your team. I wanna know about the role that's empty. You know, is it new? Is it a backfill? Is it different? Is there anyone on the team currently doing it? What is the cell for the role? All that kind of stuff, you know, 'cause again, these are the things that people wanna know. Who am I working for? How many people are on my team? What am I going to do day to day? If I can answer those questions, then I look like an idiot, which a lot of recruiters don't do that. And then they end up being like, I don't know. And then it's a waste of a conversation. So I want to answer all those questions on the front end and save my hiring manager time. I'm not an engineer, so I obviously can't get into the weeds with the day to day. But I can get pretty far. You're going to be using this tech stack. We're transitioning to the cloud. This is the cloud that we're using. all that kind of stuff. So you have that information on the front end. And a lot of my hiring managers have either done it for a long time, or they've not done it at all. And the ones that have done it for a long time, some of the challenges I run into are the really kind of what society has deemed like outdated practice of whiteboarding. Write me an algorithm. - When was the last time you came up with an algorithm from scratch? - You never do that. - Right. Stand in front of this room of people and do this. Like, do you as an engineer program in front of other people on the regular? - Nope. - Not with the marker either. (laughing) - So I'm trying to educate them and then I'm trying to educate new hiring managers as well 'cause they just don't know. - Yeah. - And so I'd be like, hey, you know, there's other ways to do this. There's project-based interviewing. Come up with something that should take two to three hours. Bring someone on site to sit in the pod with your team and do this work and ask questions and do a code review. All of those things that an engineer does in a day, but they still have their own time to write their code, to use Google. All of the things that you would do. - The practical things that would happen on a day to day. - No, you have no resources that you're disposal while you do normal code day to day. - Yeah, and we're like, do we use Git? Give them access to Git. Like why are we making this so archaic? So I just try to educate them, make sure that hiring managers know they're a gatekeeper for their team. So they're expected to also evaluate the dynamic this person will bring in. Leave it to your direct reports to evaluate the technical ability 'cause that's something that they can do. not all of them can evaluate the social implications of hiring this person. And so it's more educating them on what I need from them as well as what I can provide them that they may not gotten with other recruiters. - I want to go back to the technical interview. And like, as looking at the industry as a whole, where do you think that shift is starting to happen? Is it like, are the big three still embracing that? It's kind of a litmus test, they see it right from a baseline knowledge. >> I think they see it as more of like, they're trying to find your critical thinking skills, right? That's the way they're looking at it as opposed to like, doing day-to-day work. >> Yeah. Yeah. So Microsoft does project-based interviewing. >> They do. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. >> Google has always been really, like, I don't know what you would call what they do. It's not normal. >> Nothing like Google. >> How many ping pong balls can you fit on a bus? Nobody cares. Yeah. Supposedly it tells you who's creative. Creative thinking. I call bull. So it is evolving. It is changing. You can still have a need for someone to be able to come up with algorithms on the spot. That could be something a company needs. It's just probably 1% of the companies out there. And so be realistic. I've asked a hiring manager, when's the last time you whiteboarded in front of a person at work? Yeah, right. Exactly. If that's a skill that you legitimately need, you know, sometimes you're an architect or a designer and you literally need to explain what you want done to a group of engineers. Okay, fine. I'm totally on board with you asking that candidate to do that. But if they can be heads down, cranking out code at their desk, why would you put them in that situation? And I thought there was a very interesting kind of thing you put out on Facebook for a while ago And I don't know if you're prepared to talk about it But like it was kind of is basically whiteboarding kind of a sexist Practice which I thought was kind of fascinating. I don't remember all the details, but Yeah, I had put out the Call to my recruiting network that I needed data to support the pivot to project based interviewing from whiteboarding because it sounds great in hypotheticals and in qualitative examples, right? Like, it's changing more now, but back in the day, like when we were in school, there was kind of this like forced people to go up to the front of the room and write an answer on the chalkboard. And it didn't really matter if you were a shy kid or if you were a boy or a girl, they made everyone do it. But there are social implications to that. And there's, you know, boys are encouraged to be boy stress. And it's OK for them to be wrong and make mistakes. And little girls are taught to be prim and proper and perfect. So you just have these different social implications of making someone do something in front of a group of other people. So I wanted data, though, to talk about this pivot. All of the qualitative stories make sense. but Microsoft would probably be one of the only places that would have that data on a large enough scale. Right? Probably find people like, I've done five, white boarding and I've done five project. Like, okay, that doesn't scale. (laughing) But I wanted to know if there was any studies out there that actually proved this. And unfortunately, no. There are some in academia, 'cause they've proven that forcing children to go up and write on the board, especially now with like, There's a lot more education around, I guess, various levels of being on the spectrum. And so you could really create permanent damage in a child if you forced them to do these things. So there's a lot more educational data around it, but nothing really in the workplace. - That's interesting. - Yeah, it was fascinating to see, you know, predominantly I think it was white males come out of the woodwork to defend whiteboarding, right? Like you had a lot of back and forth with a number of people where you were just kind of getting attacked. And you know, you would say like, well, I'm looking for data. I'm not really like looking for opinions here. And they just continually reach back and be like, no, well, I've done this for years. And she's like, this is not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for data. Yeah, several times. Like I had, I was like, for 20 years, I've done it this way. And I just responded and was like, good for you. I'm glad that that has worked for you in your career. I'm not interested in your data. - Right. - Everyone off-hands were here. - You know, women tried to support my ask and defend me, but they often used qualitative personal examples and like, I understand that and I relate to that. But again, I'm trying to make a data-driven decision. - Right. - And so I actually had a mentor of mine. Like I don't really know him personally, but he goes, I go to conferences that he speaks at and he's definitely someone I follow. Call me. - Wow. - Seven in the morning and say, "I'm sorry for what happened on that thread." Like there was one particular person who was just like unbearable and he's like, "Unfortunately, I know I'm going to play that person." So it was really funny. He's like, "We'll see how that goes." But yeah, it was really interesting how like you just even make the suggestion of change And it was like I lit a fire. Yeah. Wasn't looking what it was looking to do at all, but it's what it is. It's not surprising there's a bias there, because yeah, if you've been doing it for 20 years, then you know the system now. And so that's like, that's your way in, right? And it suggests that that's going to change, or we're going to look at a different set of criteria now, price cares the hell out of a lot of people that, I don't know, maybe do really well at that, but suck at other ways of interviewing, or the soft skills, or whatever it is. - Right. - And it's funny that it hasn't been evaluated a little bit more because right, like engineers, myself included are mostly introverted. So like yeah, it's probably, it's a ton of pressure and it's a very uncomfortable place to put somebody who's an introvert in front of potentially a panel of people and all those people watching you do something up on the board. I mean, I hate doing it personally. Everybody I know pretty much hates it. So yeah, why do we continue to subject people to that? - And the other thing is like the candidate, especially, well, in the current market, the candidate is interviewing your company. No one is in desperate need of a job right now in the tech industry. So you have to impress this person as well. And if you're asking them to do something like come up with some algorithm and they're like, I'm a build engineer. - Yeah, I'm a build engineer. - What? - Do I have to do that here? 'Cause if I do, I don't want to work here, right? So I have to like make sure that we're providing like candidate with a reasonable experience and reflection of what they'll do day to day. Because we have to sell ourselves as well right now. Obviously the economy changes, things change, you end up getting 15 people applying to one role and all of them want it really bad and all of them are overly qualified. That's a different scenario but that's not the current market. Wow. I would imagine that places like Amazon are still the traditional, they would be doing the old way, right? Yeah. throw money at you so. Yeah exactly and they have what they call a bar razor which is someone that really comes in to really just grind you. Wow. In what way just kind of continue to reach out over and over and over until you kind of cave or what? No the bar razor is in the interview and they basically want to find your edges. They want to know it's going to be probably someone's super senior and better than the candidate hypothetically but they're really going to make sure that technically what Amazon says that they do is they hire people better than they already are there. So obviously this cannot go on infinitely, but that's hypothetically they're bringing you in a bar-raiser to make sure that you would be better than 50% of the company. Really? Yeah. And so that's where the pressure really gets put on in an Amazon interview. Damn. So in theory, like it should have been, I should have been trying to apply there like a 99 or something like that. Yes. Before you graduate. It keeps getting harder and harder and harder. Wow. Love learning about that though just because, well, it's been a few years since I was subjected to even like a phone screen from them. I mean, I've been here for what, six years almost. Well, in fact then, didn't they make you like verbally say, I would type backslash, backslash, print. Have you ever been on that kind of an interview where like, you have to literally code over the phone? So with them, with that particular screen, the first time with Amazon, yes. And it was, but I guess it wasn't exclusively phone. They did have some kind of whiteboard. Oh, no, I had to do this. They found the computer screen. Literally, like, tell them the code over the phone. No way. It was so painful. I can't even imagine these days, like, asking anyone to do remotely anything like that. But yeah, the resources didn't exist even less than 10 years ago to share a screen with a random candidate, right? share a screen with someone on your network or something like that. But at the time, the thought of sharing a screen with someone outside of your network that you don't know was unheard of. And I think to get back to the whiteboard and comment, I think like that, that explains a little bit too why there's the sudden pivot away from that because like that's all you had before. Right. There was nothing else. So there weren't these online tools available. I mean, you could bring them in and make them work on a laptop for hours or something like that. But I mean, there was no coderpad or all these new screen sharing tools that you can use in interview scenarios. So I think it makes sense that it's slowly starting to turn, but people are somewhat resistant. Yeah, I encourage my hiring managers. I will provide you with we use coderpad where I'm currently out. I will provide you with a coderpad link to share with the candidate. But I would like you to use it for examples or reference or to let a candidate process, because maybe sometimes people need to start typing something out to understand where they're going to end up. But please don't be like, here's FizzBuzz go and just sit there and watch them type. It doesn't really add any value or collect relevant data. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, not recent. This has been here. I don't know how many years ago. But anyway, similar type of experience that gave me just like an open, open coding share screen. and he's like, "Do this." And then in the background, all I hear is typing, and I'm talking to other people, yeah, I'm just like, "Why the hell am I even here?" - Should have muted at least, come on. And be an idol like that. - Yeah. - That bastard. - Yeah. - It worked out fine. We got here instead. (laughing) I wanna shift it a little bit. - I had to do the show with this dickhead. - Well, now that's your penance, man. You have to be 60 episodes later. - You're doing great. - Hey, thanks, Slayer. (laughing) players at MOTC right now that wasn't really him that I'd be recording. Well we need to get a real one. I wanted to, you were going to mention a little bit just about our scenario here because we're bringing, we have a technical recruiter coming in from Charlotte. We do, I'm very excited about this. So he, at least in the brief conversations that I've talked to him, he has very similar views to what Christina does in terms of how interviews should be done, how you collect feedback, how you collect data, which is another thing I think we should get into, because that was part of my recent interview processes in where we're collecting feedback. In this case, I think it was feedback on the take home tests that we gave. And in this case, it was coming back to me in kind of a group email format. So like everybody was getting the feedback. And when I talked to Christina about that, she's like, by the way, you shouldn't do that. You should collect it privately because effectively, you're biasing the entire review pool. And I was like, well, exact point. I would not have thought of that. I need somebody who has technical expertise in this. So that's another point. And when I relayed that to a couple of people on the team, they were like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But we probably would not have come to that conclusion at least not quickly. Yeah. And I always get from hiring managers, well, my team has too much to do. they can't put their feedback in the system. And I'm like, okay, one, you need to make time to do things properly, to document things, there's a legal requirement, things are discoverable, to Seattle's too small to not document who we've talked to and what we've talked to them about. So I need you to know or write down what you asked in that interview and how you evaluated the answer. Ultimately as a recruiter, my dream would be for every candidate I've ever screened to come find me again in the future when they want to work for me at a later time, whether I'm at a new company or not. But I need to know what we've talked about. I need to know what their answer was last time. Have they grown in the last two years? If we ask them the same question, do we get a different result? Can we collect new data and not revisit everything we've already asked them? All of these things are very important and make a lot of sense once you hear it. Like once I have that conversation with the hiring manager, they're like, oh, OK, fair. Yeah, like I know that we've interviewed one person two or three times and so yeah, we should document what we've asked and what we want to ask next time and those sorts of things. And so they get it. And then, you know, bias, there's all these bias trainings that I highly recommend for any company, any person, because it's unconscious, byus, mostly, that we need to try and be aware of. You won't fix it. You won't be aware of everything. But whatever you can make yourself informed about, the better. Yes. Makes a lot of sense. Some of those points that our guy brought up as well, I thought we're really hadn't thought about before. So I'm glad that we're starting to evolve a little bit in our process here and take it a little more seriously. - Yeah, I think that's important. Well, I mean, to your point about the questions, the interview questions, like would you, in an ideal world, would you, would every candidate be asked the same questions? In other words, so that you can kind of compare candidate to candidate candidate and get a good feeling on, you know, one versus the other. - Technical questions, yes. I would like you to ask the same coding question, But I mean, conversations evolve organically and I would hate for you to be like, "Nope." Now I'm going over here. Don't go that path. So I want you to have organic conversation. But if you're going to ask one candidate to delete a binary tree and you're going to ask another candidate, just something like like FizzBuzz, it's apples and oranges. - Yeah, that's not really fair. - You can't evaluate each candidate against each other. So I do want the same technical questions. It's fine to obviously see, like especially in the beginning, you're like, oh, I didn't get what I wanted when I asked that question. Okay, fine, ask a different question. But once you kind of find one that you feel is getting you the information that you want, and I would like you to ask it to all candidates going forward in a perfect world. I would have a question bank that people could use throughout the company for any team, any role, all that kind of stuff. - So what's all we operate? And I think that served us well. I noticed like over time as we bring in more candidates, it's been interesting to see how they approach it. And you get a wide variety. As many people get that many different answers, different approaches. And so it's been fun to see, you know, we let them choose their own stack to answer it and just say, look, here's the question. And it's more of the project base that you're talking about, a couple hour project, throw it in Git, and let's take a look at it. And we've had some people come in and one command, automates everything, it builds, runs, deploys, and then others that don't do anything. It's just been interesting to see how everyone approaches it that way, and you wouldn't get that perspective if you had different questions. - Yeah. - Shout out, hey, I think we got a new listener, Jill is joining us today. That's my aunt. Oh, cool. Hi, Jill. Awesome show. Great info. Thanks for just checking it out. It's three month witch, Zach. Thanks, Zach. Yeah. Hey, we are on Twitch, right? We are on Twitch. Is there a problem? Are we not? Would you like us to put up a software question? And just give you-- Just don't put any eggplant and splash emojis up on your-- It's pretty much on your screen. Hey, apparently that's a frowned upon when you're submitting a technical interview code on Git. Somebody would have said that, you know, like ahead of time in the notes. Yeah poor guy Like we had somebody do that today. Yeah Kyle told me last night like oh the candidate I was really impressed with on the phone just submitted its code review and it's got an eggplant and splash emoji in it and I was like what? I Okay, obviously maturity maybe a factor here. It's a junior ish role, so Okay, I'm willing to overlook some things but a little NSF W there. Yeah, like I Get that Society has evolved And these emojis are what they are, but yeah, I said you know I would give them the benefit of the doubt right now in terms of Maybe he has code he reuses which I don't hold against anybody in an engineering position and he just didn't really proofread it. Yeah, okay You know maybe ask him about it when you talk to him and see if he kind of It's a mech culpa thing or he's like, huh, wasn't that funny like then I think you get a lot of information We have to have the emoji discussion. We really like you as a candidate We like to bring you in but we need to talk about the proper use of emojis that work What the hell are we doing? What kind of world do we live in now? emoji training Day one training yet to have emoji training. That's right Make sure you watch those sexual harassment videos. - Oh yeah, we got a special stack in the HR library for you here, sir. I'm going to eat you to like, sign on the line here that you watched all these videos. - Oh boy. - I think though, another thing to bring up to, like a couple of things that we've touched on that is important, I think from your perspective in terms of recruiting, is you're like a relationship builder, right? Not only with the Canada, but with the engineering or hiring managers that you deal with. And a lot of times that's benefited to you because these people, what was the term we use boomerang, they come maybe you're out a different company or whatever, but they come back around and return to you to find a new job or get advice for the next job or whatever, right? - Yeah, I mean, again, like I said, as a recruiter, I want to have a pool of people that a hiring manager comes to me and says, we need a senior web dev. I can be like, okay, let me make some phone calls. - Yeah. We'll post the job and see, make sure we're hiring the best that we can within our budget. But it would certainly make my life easier if I could just go make three or four phone calls and see if I can find someone that we can hire rather than go through 100 resumes and have engineers spend 20 hours a pop interviewing them. So yeah, I want to have a network when I let someone down that, you know, it was a really close call or it came down to something, you know, subject matter expertise in like one specific area. I will make the call and let them know specifically like, this is not a no, it's a not right now. You know, please keep in touch with me, please follow up with me. I will keep you in mind, you know, and I try to always reiterate to any candidate that doesn't work out. It's not a personal decision, right? We have to put the business needs first and find what's best for the business. And you're still a good person, you're still a good dev or PM or whatever. So let's stay connected. Let's jump down into the nitty gritty here and maybe - Like Zach in Rain, I think you're listening, so ear muffs, but when you are trying to like, source for a candidate, you used LinkedIn primarily, right? Like what kind of tips, tricks, things that you would like advise people to do, not to do, like obviously you have a lot of stuff. - Covered one. - Yeah, no emojis, preferably. But there's a lot of things that you see obviously, so like what are like good things to do and bad things to do? Sure. I understand there's a lot of engineers completely content in the role that they're in and don't want all the spam that comes with their profession. But I would encourage them to actually evaluate the company that's reaching out. If they have the time, I understand there's plenty that get hundreds of messages recruiters message and say does this person actually know what they're talking about and they understand what I do every day because the bigger picture is maybe you want to be connected to that recruiter for when you are ready to make a transition. It's much easier for you as a candidate to know a recruiter and say I'm looking even if they can't hire to their company, they have a network. So yeah, I encourage anyone who gets outreach from a recruiter to at least look into it, right? Don't get aggressive and say, I told you I'm not looking because the other thing is we have a network. You get all aggressive with me and every recruiter I know is going to know that you're not a great person to work with. I think too. and look at those messages, because I got a lot of those too, right? And some of them, you can tell are like legitimate, and they're people like you that are actually like trying to like find specific things. And then there's other people that are like very clearly template generated messages that are oftentimes wrong. Like, hey, Bill. Yeah. I'm not Bill. Sorry, dude. Yeah, you'd be a great like C++ engineer, and you're like, what? I don't have that anywhere on my way. Great, buddy. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I would just say, be open-minded and think longer term than your immediate needs. Be mindful that so a lot of the tools that I will use to find your personal contact information, essentially what it does is it connects me to all of your social media. So if I find your LinkedIn page, it's going to show me your Twitter, it's going to show me your Facebook, it's going to show me literally like your Twitch, like if you have an account on a large social media platform, my tools will show me what your account looks like on those platforms. How often is that a disqualifier? So, uh, I will find you. Recently, um, that's spooky, you know exactly you're talking about. Uh, recently I had a candidate, uh, in process that, um, their GitHub, they had a note with some code that they had published. they had done some work for a local company to help the consumer of that brand. And the company basically didn't benefit from this work, this technical work. And so they fired him. I'm not saying it was their right or that was right what they did. It is within their right where in that will state. he went out there and he put all their business in this note on this code and get. Well, boy. So one of my hiring managers was doing his due diligence and looking at this candidate's code and get, which I encourage them to do, because I think you can get a really good understanding of somebody's skill level by looking at their side projects. And he was like, this makes me uncomfortable. And I said, OK, fair. Can you please still talk to the candidate? And obviously you're going to heavily focus on the soft skills conversation with this candidate because you know they have a tendency to put their employer on blast and you would hate for that to happen in this situation. If you feel like this was a one-off situation and they've learned from it and they've grown from it and you wouldn't be worried about it again, we can still readily evaluate this candidate for their qualifications for the role. So yeah, we will see things that may or may not be in your favor and just be aware of that. You know, we have personal stories and experience where we had personal contact with the AWS hacker. Remember we talked about that. It was crazy. These things happen. She got caught because she put her resume with her full legal name on her GitHub account. >> Yeah. Well, it was, yeah, she had her CV, like actually loaded into GitHub as a commit. >> Oh, shit. Okay. >> And also the data sheet stolen. >> Yep. Right there with it. >> Yeah. >> So. >> Very convenient. >> Yeah. >> He's a wild. >> The FBI really had to work hard to track her down. Yeah. So just remember all of these things are connected, and anyone doing due diligence on their candidate before a screen, may or may not come across it. - Yeah, that's a great point. - And what about resumes? We've had some talks about resume formatting and stuff like that. There's been some pretty elaborate ones that you've showed me and I'm just like, "Woo, are you a designer or what's going on here?" - So at my last job, I would always turn around and ask the engineer behind me, what's rule number one of resumes? He'd be like, "No profile pictures." (laughing) I don't want a picture. I don't want to know what you look like. A picture tells me your gender. It tells me your ethnicity sometimes. It often gives me an age range. All of these things I do not want to make an evaluation of your abilities for the job. So take a photo if you have it on your resume, take it off. Well, just designs anyway versus like the standard one picture. It really depends on the role. I really don't mind a creative resume if it's a creative role. Right now I'm hiring art designers and graphic designers. And their resumes tend to be much different from a technical resume and I really don't mind. Obviously the design's bad. Not going to help you. But for the most part, I really want one page. If you have less than 10 years of experience, two pages, if you have more, you can get into a CV. If you have a PhD and you've been published in multiple publications. If you do not have a PhD, do not ever get me more than a two page resume. I want the nitty-gritty, you know, quantify what you've done, you know. How many people are accessing the web page that you've made? How much data is being transferred through your APIs? What size of data pipeline are you using to pull your analytics, quantify all of these things? How many people are you managing? how many people are in your org if you're a leader. All of these things help me understand, right? 'Cause you can be a VP from Bank of America and have zero direct reports and they gave you that title so that you could approve a purchase of $100. - Oh wow. - Or you can be a VP at Bank of America and have 100 people in your organization. So I need to know numbers. - And something you brought up there a lot of times, what did you do, right? Like that's something that you've impressed upon me a lot of times is like don't use the team. This is like what did you do, right? - Which culturally can be really hard. - Yep. - Women in particular cultural backgrounds say we, we did and they mean I. (laughing) But they're taught to not take credit. These are meant to get you in front of the right people and in the door. So people are like, oh, I don't wanna oversell. You're not gonna oversell most likely. So yeah, keep it short, keep it simple, keep it to the point, tailor it. I know it's a lot of work, but if one company is like, we're looking for angular 2.6 and you've used all of these things, like do it, put it on there. Because any recruiters can be like low-hanging fruit, yes. Right? If you apply to somewhere else and they're like, we want, I don't know, JS or whatever. give them what they want if you have it. Don't lie. (laughs) - Yeah. - You see that resumes where they're like, I know.net, HTML and CSS and C++. - Really? - Do you really? - We were ready to start talking about pointers or something like that. (laughs) - Sounds like you're pretty heavy on the front end. You dabble in your fun time and C++. - Heck yeah. (laughs) - What do you feel about like the big thing that I see now resumes all the time is like the gauges I guess for lack of a better word right like oh I have you know we'll say in our terms dot net experience and you know I'm a three and a half out of five stars in that and on CSS I'm a five star out of five you know that kind of thing first of all everybody's at least four stars of everything of course so there are a waste of space on a resume you could make your text about your work history wider and leave off that column on the side of the page because literally if I pulled all of my resumes that had these like self-radings everyone who be a 4 and 5 star at everything they list. - That's all bullshit anyway. - Right. I had an engineer years ago that used to ask every candidate about like on a scale of 1 to 10 evaluate your C++ abilities and everyone was a 7 or 8 and if they said 9 or 10 he would say oh so you're on like the C++ like committee and one guy was like yeah. I am. And he was like, I'm never asking that question again. I was like, good, because it's a waste of time. That's, I mean, that's what I've always understood is that if you're going to list it on there, you better be prepared to get into it in some detail. You can't just say, oh, yeah, I took a course on plural site. And now I know CSS. Like, you have to have enough experience with it that you can go into depth on that or don't even-- Yeah. And I get a lot of resumes that under education, they'll have like every Coursera that they've ever taken. Oh, boy. And I'm like, OK, look, I know you're trying to pivot. you're trying to show that you've done all these side projects and stuff, but like, I don't need to know every single course error course you've ever taken. It's not a college credit. It doesn't go towards a degree. It's a waste of valuable real estate on your one paid resume. I took the Bob Ross course in CSS on YouTube. I got the paint a happy tree award. Very nice. I like that. Yeah. Hey, that's great. Come on in. Let's have a chat. There's no mistakes. - Right. - Happy little accidents. (laughing) - I do think that's telling though, like just when you, like the, not all the time, but it seems like the more you're gonna put on there, the more you're trying to like polish it up and put some bullshit in there. It's like, okay, the people that really know their shit are just gonna put, what's important? What matters the numbers and then, and leave it off and you can have a simple one page or maybe a two page or but the ones that come in there are just a laundry list. Oh yeah, like back in '99, like here's the 18 point list of what I did in this HTML project, who gives a shit anymore. - Yeah, like it's a little bit different when you're at beginning of a career, right? You're an intern trying to get a full-time job. Okay, sure, list every technology you've touched. But yeah, you're 20 years into your career. You're probably not pivoting a whole lot between like C++ and JavaScript and like you know, you're probably going down one path or another and have an area of emphasis, so emphasize it. I really like if you can show me depth when we're talking about these higher level languages great that's to your benefit but I don't want to mistakenly put you in front of our server engineer who's a C++ expert when you're a front end guy. Yeah, man. Trying to get as complete a picture you can on this person. Yeah. Going back to like LinkedIn recruiter like because that's what you use right is called LinkedIn Recruiter, which is the recruiting side of LinkedIn, which has all kinds of crazy things that it can do that maybe you're not aware of. But when you're trying to hunt for candidates, I know there's stuff that kind of bubbles them up to the top a little bit, right? I don't know if this affects actually. LinkedIn Recruiter, if this is just other folks that don't have the Recruiter accounts, but if I make a change to my profile, I think that bumps you up to the top of the listings because they assume, oh, now you're looking. Yeah, they definitely, so Microsoft bought LinkedIn. So there's definitely algorithms on their side that have nothing to do with me that will propagate a list of people who are more active toward the top. So even that even includes logging in. So you don't necessarily have to make a change. But if you haven't logged into LinkedIn in 10 years, they're probably not going to show me your profile. Jim's dead, but I don't know how many ways. And that's unfortunate. I've definitely seen people who are like, oh, that person's not alive anymore. I'm like, oh, you make changes, expect an influx of spam. You can delete everything, but basically when it comes down to it, Microsoft will sell your soul for an amount and they will give your email to someone for a dollar. So don't get mad at the recruiter that they have your contact information. They just paid for a product that gives it to them. Yeah, I think that's been a fascinating thing to see is like yeah, you can you can mark yourself as you don't want to be contacted You're not available yada yada yada yada but like Some level deeper you can you can be contacted if you pay enough money I don't understand that the matter of response like most cases I Just don't respond I I have responded before though in some cases like you say when they're legitimate and they look interesting I'll say hey listen, you know, I'm really happy right now, but I'd like to you know keep your information around and maybe we can talk if things change a lot, you know. But to me to come back with some smart remark or like, screw you for God's add to me. Well, I think you used to work with like data scientists, which are like, I mean, if you can name your price if you're those people right now, like there, everybody needs them, everybody wants them, everybody will pay them a bajillion dollars. So like, yeah, if you reach out to one of those people, they're like, I got 15 bazillion emails today, like, leave me the hell alone. Yeah, but like to Mike's point, you know if you respond and you say, "Look, the sound's interesting, but I want to hang out here for at least 18 more months or whatever." I will say, "I usually will respond and say, "Thank you for letting me know. Please feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn. I don't ever send the request because some engineers get really touchy about their network." - Wow, okay. - So I give them the option, like if you want to connect to me, please feel free, I will certainly accept your connection. If you don't and you, you know, carefully monitor your network, I understand. - Yeah. - But I will put a reminder to reach out to you in 18 months. - That's cool. Doing a good job there. I mean, that's how you gotta do it. - Well, I even had a very limited experience, I think through you, remember it was Chameleon, right? Wasn't that your setup? - That's who, yeah, when I, the job before this, that's who I got recruited through. - Yeah. - It was an agency. And they placed me at prep sportswear. - Right, right. And so the girls there that I, two of them that I had worked with were great. They moved on to other things now. But yeah, I mean, it didn't take much. And we had a pretty good, they did a really good job of trying to understand where I was at in my career at the time and what would be a good fit. And they did a great match. - Right. - Yeah, I always tell Kyle, a job is a place and a time. You can want to work at a startup, but if you're 25 and have a new baby and another one on the way, maybe you want a little more stability. Right. Maybe you shouldn't be at a early stage startup that could run out of funding. But call me in five years. I like that. It's a time in a place. Would you say? A place in a time. A place in a time, yeah. That's great. It's a good way to look at it, for sure. Yeah, and it just, yeah, you never know. Hopefully I never have to go through anywhere. I've done two different ones. So like I've done an independent, which I mean, everybody I think in the field you say it kind of wants to go and do their independent thing, right? Or a lot of them do. So I've gone to him. That's where I got placed, I think, at GroundSpeak way back in the day. And then yeah, I went through Camillean. And that worked out pretty well. Like I had pretty good experience with that too. They kind of did a technical interview-ish type thing with one of their recruiters. He kind of gauged where he thought I should go and like what my abilities were and then they kind of placed me based on that. Whereas the other guy was much more of a, he came back around because I think after I left ground speak he wanted to place me again. So I mean he was trying to build that relationship as well very similarly but was unsuccessful in that. Yeah. So I've had good experiences with the creators and I'm very excited for the one coming to Quot Wizard from Lending Tree. I told Christina I'd like to introduce him, 'cause I think that, you know, he's moving from Charlotte, so he'll need to meet some people. Why not, Mason? - But he took my job. I mean, Zach wants me here. - Everybody wanted you. To be fair, everybody wanted you. - Everybody did want you here actually. We tried to. - There was F-bombs being thrown about. - Yeah. - I heard Kyle's fucking wife or something like that. (laughing) That was something. - For Beta. - You're boss might've said that. - Yeah, I heard that. It's exactly what happened. Really true story. - Yep. But yeah, I mean, that'd be a great connection to make there. I guess on that note, because we're kind of, we're getting close to the hour. But the one thing that I wanted to bring up about our meeting with him that I thought was interesting might have some information to add to this is the data that he was using. So they were compiling like market data on each of our locations. So he kind of shared that deck a little bit. And I think it was CBRE, maybe that had that. Really amazing information on cost of living and the tech talent and that ranking, all that kind of stuff. So can you talk a little bit to that? >> Yeah, so I've mostly been at earlier stage companies as a recruiter and so unfortunately, I've had pretty limited data and information on that scale. You can easily pay for a salary survey, but they're expensive and they're typically pretty narrow because they want you to buy other salary surveys. But yeah, I mean, it truly matters. I've used things like pay scale as well. I'm trying to hire someone from Florida. Well, the cost of living is 40% less. So they're making 120 there. But that's like making 160 here. How do we do the math and make it work and those sorts of things? The talent pool is definitely something to keep in mind. Seattle is obviously very popular and a lot of the big companies are here now that weren't before. You got Apple here now, you got Uber and Facebook and it's no longer just Amazon and Microsoft. I've seen crazy things in terms of the offers and counter offers I've seen from candidates and the data that the company has doesn't support, you know, going that direction and competing with those offers. But yeah, I have right now a strategy I'm working on for a marketing role out of Oakland, where Oakland is very, it's part of the Bay Area, so it's very, very high salaries. And basically we've come to the conclusion that we should be looking for talent willing to relocate to the Bay Area. Big Fish has a specific studio in Oakland that focuses on slot machines. So maybe we can focus on a marketing person who has slots experience, land-based slots experience, or we can focus on someone willing to relocate that has mobile marketing experience. And then we can build them up on either side 'cause we're not finding this unicorn that we need. - Oh, wow. - So, yeah, I mean, it plays a factor for sure. I don't envy recruiters in the Bay Area at all. I, the counters I see down there, and the craziness that I see, I don't envy them at all. - 'Cause even with all of the, like, what I would say, like the decentralization of tech and you're starting to see offices in New York City now, another Austin, but I mean the Bay is still number one. It's ridiculous. - Yeah, and in the Bay, it's not unusual to see people all training jobs after less than a year. - Really? - A lot, right. Seattle's getting that way. I'd say Seattle's still 18 to 24 months, but in the Bay Area, it's really not unusual to see people go 10, 11 months and then hop. And it's because a company will be willing to pay your sign-on back at that other company. - Oh, that's crazy. - Okay. So yeah, there's a lot of craziness that happens in the Bay. I know there's companies specifically looking at the Midwest. Can we start an office there and encourage some of our people from the Bay Area to relocate there? Sure. And attract talent to these lower cost of living places. It's definitely something that large organizations are doing. Well, to your point about time and place, I feel like maybe there's a lot of people that have families there, like, okay, I'm ready to leave the bay now because it's on, it's a can of four to house, or whatever. >> Yeah, I need to buy a house for less than a million dollars. >> That's right. >> Really high bar there. [LAUGHTER] >> Because that's not going to be a great house. >> No. >> It's a tarot house and it's a million dollars. >> That's right. >> Sad but true. >> Talk a little bit, one more thing we can, and then we can wrap up here, like, talk a little bit about, like, negotiation and that process because, like, there's been a number of times I've seen you kind of go through the negotiations with people and like you have the ability to kind of having been in the space for a while, I kind of understand when you're kind of getting bullshitted I guess for lack of a better word or getting used to be compared to somebody else. So like you have any advice to people going through that kind of process to help them navigate those waters. Yeah so I had a candidate who was like here's Here's what I'm looking for. And then I exceeded their offer expectations, and they still countered on me. - Oh wow. - I was very angry on a personal level. - But that's something too, before you move on, is you are very explicit with the candidate, right? Have I met your expectations? Have I made you happy? You ask these questions very directly. - Yeah. And we specifically exceeded the candidate's expectations to show our excitement about the candidate. and really hope that this will close the deal. So getting a counter, which is really, was frustrating at the time. But I just had the conversation. I said, look, you gave me a range. I exceeded the entire range. - Yeah. - And now you're asking me to counter. I can't present that to the business and expect them to sign off on it. - Wasn't our agreement, let's know what we-- - Yeah, I already told the business we're exceeding your expectations. I cannot go back now and tell them that we need to increase this offer. And what happened? They understood. They walked. No, they took it. They took it. Oh, interesting. They signed. Yeah, I mean, so I'm Canada. It's just how to counter an encounter in this case. That's been ingrained in everybody, right? Like you must counter. You got to ask for more. Yep. Which-- Yeah, as a recruiter, screw you. On a personal level, I get it. As a recruiter, you make my life hard. So yeah, the other part is be real. You know, if you're actively interviewing, that's fine. I actually hope that you are doing your due diligence. But give me a realistic timeline of when you're going to make a decision. - Yeah. - I will do everything that I can to meet that timeline. And then the worst thing that happens is like, I bust my butt, I get you on site, I get you an offer, and then you're like, thanks, I'll get back to you in a week. I'm like, really? I just did all of this work. I literally like working extra hours to get you this offer. And then you don't even respect me enough to give me an answer. I understand things happen and whatnot, but keep me informed throughout the process. Hey, I'm actually not going to get on site with this other company until after next week. So don't feel obligated to meet the timeline we had talked about earlier. those sorts of things. It seems fair. Goes a long way. You know, my advice, a lot of people always want to know like, well, when do I know to move on or how much more should I be asking for? I'm not going to leave a perfectly good job for more, for anything less than 20% more. 20% more. If I'm miserable, obviously that numbers are much lower. I'm willing to negotiate. Getting the hell out of here. But yeah, I mean, if I have a perfectly good job and I'm not willing to go anywhere, I'm going to give you a high number and it's it's gonna be at least 20% more. - And I suppose I've seen other people fall into this trap where they will offer that information up. Well, here's where I'm at right now. - Which legally I cannot ask you. - Okay, so that's a good point. You can't ask that. And I don't know, I think the answer would be they should just really provide the range they wanna be in, not necessarily where they're at right now. - Yeah, and do your homework, go look out online, what you can see. If you're like, I want 150K and the average salary is 100. Like you're just delusional and wasting everyone's time. Like the realistic. And then yeah, I personally will ask you, what is it going to take? Yeah. At the end of the day, if we're happy, you're happy and I need to go to the business and say, here's what we need to present. Tell me what that is. And that's what I will do. I'm a very different recruiter though that I'm not a sales type recruiter. There's definitely the type of recruiter that will low-ball you and drive for you to verbally accept on the phone and all these things. Cutthroat recruiter. Yeah, I don't play that game. I don't like that style. Yeah. It is not in my best interest to pay you less. I want you to be happy and comfortable working here. So if I low-ball you, you'll probably look sooner. Yeah, you're not helping yourself. That's a short play that doesn't really work in the field. And again, back to the relationships thing, you want them to come back around. So if you low-ball them, they're not going to come back to you. Do you want to done that? Yeah. And if I'm really at the upper end of my budget and I can't get what you need to be where I'm at, I will let you know that I've done everything that I can and let you know the conversations I've had with the hiring manager and be realistic about like look this is what we can do now but in six to 12 months you could expect an increase or you could expect a title change. I mean we understand that we have to give you a reason to be here. And so you know I will be very transparent with candidates that I don't understand why you wouldn't be like these are decisions that change people's lives can make or break you know a family and so I don't understand the point of trying to get someone to accept the lowest amount possible. I have definitely presented people with offers that far exceeded their expectations because they were not asking market rate. Wow. I honestly if I in a perfect world you know we would have accurate salary surveys that I could offer you mid it would be more than you're currently making and I I wouldn't even know what you're currently making. - It wouldn't matter to be easy and, yeah, no haggle. - Formula's, I would love a formula. - Yeah, mm-hmm. - Compensation I think is like something else that we could do a whole other show on if we wanted to. There's like so much to unpack there in different types of ways of doing compensation and bonuses and all that kind of silly stuff. But we're gonna ignore Reigns last comment there. He's wondering something I'm not gonna repeat on. - All right. But really, really appreciate the conversation. Good conversation, Reign. Yeah, it was quick. No, don't call. All right, thanks for listening. Yeah, thanks for coming on the show. Our work is provided by Urnai, the gentle giant. Check out more of his artwork at www.coffecodecast.com/jentelgiant. Check us out on Facebook, Twitter, email us at coffeecodecast@jemo.com. The podcast is, of course, available anywhere you get your podcasts. Find all this and more on our website. And give us a review. Your reviews, your retweets. That all helps us get more exposure on the cast here. And so coffeecodecast.com/review or on Twitter or Facebook or whatever other social media site. Give us a shout out. We really appreciate that. And as always, thanks for listening. We'll see you here next week. - Bye-bye [Music]