35: Microsoft Build - Part II

[Music]

Welcome everybody to episode 35 of the coffee and codecast a live stream tech podcast where we talk about neither coffee or code

I'm Kyle Johnson, and I'm like she hand. Thanks for joining us today guys live

On here with video today. It's kind of our kind of a pseudo attempt. We didn't think we're gonna do video today

We weren't sure how that was gonna go. It was in the cards last week. We talked about it

We didn't think it was gonna happen due to being busy, but we made it happen. So we got one feed

We're gonna make it better, but today we got some good stuff for you guys

We're gonna finish talking about Microsoft build 2019 and go a little bit more into the tech news on that

We're gonna cover the battle between Amazon and Walmart with some new shipping updates and

That's probably all we got time for some other stuff in there in the middle there -

Thanks for joining

Welcome to the video. It's a little weird. I'm ugly mugs here for a while

I look at you do I look over there?

I think we got to figure that out you got to ignore the camera the camera's not here

The most important thing is that we got a couple ice cold cans of Coors light.

Now you can actually see that we're cracking real Coors light, not hitting some, you know,

not hitting some fake button like that.

Yeah, there we go. Nice job. Thank you. I already cracked that one before we started. So

this is good. I think we had talked about moving this to a different, right now there's a,

it's not the most exciting set here. We've got this big projector screen behind us.

This is the conference room that we've been filming or recording

for what probably about nine months now or something like that?

For a while anyway. I don't remember how long. Yeah, it's been a minute in here, but

we've got other areas in the building that we're going to set up for video.

We're trying the stage next week, I think, because that just has a pretty cool brick

backdrop and should be a little better for our purposes. Yeah. So how's everything going?

We've got some likes going on here. People liking stuff.

We're, see, this is the art thing too. Like there's just so much going on right now.

I can see that we've got a couple people on Facebook.

I don't know where the likes are coming from.

Is that--

[LAUGHTER]

I don't see that.

So that's--

So you're looking at that.

You've got Facebook open.

You've got Slack open over there.

I think this is an interesting thing

to see because now people can see kind of what

the setup looks like.

Like, we've got a lot of--

there's a lot of gear on the table here.

We got this set up in about 15 minutes.

But still, we've got a couple of laptops.

The sound board, the mixing board is right here.

And that's where we've got all the recording happens.

and we can set all the sound effects and open beers and all that stuff.

Yeah, that thing.

We haven't played that one in a while.

Yeah, I hit the wrong one.

But you're right.

You can get a better picture of what we've got going on for this little

live stream setup.

Yeah.

So you got laptops over there.

I don't know if it's visible.

Yeah, it is a little white device kind of over there.

That's the video broadcasting device.

Yeah, this guy's the live streamer.

So once we have more video angles, he'll be able to switch using his iPad

video angles one to another and that's what that that device handles that

So a lot of stuff on the table. We need to clean it up. We need to make it look a little more presentable

Yeah, for sure. I mean this was a dry run

We just wanted to see if we get a video working and just do a test of getting it out there

Unfortunately, we can't at this time get it out on multiple channels like we were gonna do Facebook and YouTube

It looks like at this point. We're just on Facebook, but that's fine. That's where we get a lot of love

Yeah, thanks for bringing that up. Somebody had already commented on me. Why aren't you on YouTube?

Currently, we've gotten better response on Facebook just by posting it.

Video I think is going to draw even more people.

We do want to still tend to YouTube, but we need another service in order to make that

happen.

Still working on that, maybe next week, see how busy we get.

Exactly.

I think the point is that we've done a lot to improve the audio quality over the last

35 episodes.

We kind of got not quite bored with it, but just wanted to do a little extra.

Now that we've got the video thing, I look for some cool stuff to come in the next weeks

and months.

I think it'll be 10 episodes from now.

The video is going to be a lot better than it is today.

And we've talked about it before on the show here.

We do have faces for radio, so if you don't want to look at us, you can just minimize the

tab or you don't have to look at us the whole time.

There should be a Zoom feature.

You can just zoom in over here on me and then you can, don't worry about it.

Kyle that's too distracting. I understand my rugged good looks. So this is interesting too.

I we could have some technical difficulties because I'm getting some. Oh no, that's the wrong thing.

The phone is 100% we're looking great. Never mind. See, I got to get used to all these.

There's so many things going on right now. Yeah, hard to keep track of at all.

Technologically, this is amazing. Like you have the board taking in these mics, which is going to

the Sling Studio over there, the white box. Yeah, which is then being consumed or broadcasting out

to the web in live. So that's what everybody's seeing.

And it's all being controlled by an iPad. I mean, it's just pretty impressive.

Like five years ago, you couldn't do this with this amount of money.

It would cost a lot more money. 10, 15 years ago, you'd had to be a millionaire.

Right. Like, how are you going to do that? It's just crazy to think we've come a

long way with technology in a short amount of time.

I had another fun experience very similar to that point.

I was heading out to North Bend yesterday for

Christina's, we were having a dinner with her mother.

For Mother's Day, a little late Mother's Day dinner.

And we had an outage with the product that I'm working on.

And so I had to jump in the car with my laptop,

hook it up to my phone, tether it,

so that I could use the internet.

And I was doing deploys on my way in the car

from North Bend to North Bend,

- Wow. - Washington.

Like driving in a car and deploying code.

Like that was kind of weird.

through the car, into the cloud somewhere.

- All wirelessly.

- All wireless, out to production.

- Yeah.

- Wow, no more dial-up modems, that's for damn sure.

- It was just like, what time do we live in?

You know, that's crazy.

- It's insane, it's insane.

But I'm happy, it's a ton of fun for us.

We get to enjoy the hell out of this thing,

so I think it's great.

- Speaking of what time do we live in,

one of the cool stories that I added to the notes here,

if you wanna move right into that.

- Let's jump in.

Amazon Prime, one day shipping is rolling out already.

So this was news recently that Amazon Prime

was going to put a ton of items in as one day shipping,

which currently it's two for most items, right?

And I think that's pretty true

kind of across the United States.

Like here in Seattle, we're pretty close to Amazon.

We have some pretty big distribution warehouses around here.

So I think a lot of things you could get next day,

but you'd have to pay, I think what, 5.99?

- Usually that's what they do.

And even if it's a two day for free,

It's a lot of times already in the warehouse here.

It could be same day, they just want you to pay for it.

Yeah, and so this has been a big ramp up.

They were doing a massive hiring

just to be able to accommodate this.

I read an article this morning actually

that they're offering $10,000 and three months

of salary up front for Amazon folks

that want to be same day delivery people,

like they wanna get their own business up

and running to do same day deliveries.

- I read about that.

So they want to kind of do the gig business, much like UberLift.

Right, exactly.

So they're going to help you get started and try to get a small army of people to do these

deliveries same day.

And it's really in response to Walmart.

Well, Walmart's responding to Amazon because they had a release today also that said that

they were going to be doing one day shipping soon as well.

Have you ever ordered anything from Walmart?

No, I don't even shop there anymore.

But like when I lived in Omaha, that was a lot more common.

You know, I did a lot then.

And so I think it's probably one of those things

where if you were a longtime Walmart shopper,

or if you were in a more rural area,

that might be beneficial.

I don't know how Amazon's coverage is now

in rural parts of the Midwest, let's just say.

But if you have a Walmart there,

then in theory you could do the one day thing

from any of those locations, right?

I mean, those things are monster warehouses.

And so everywhere you have one,

you could probably do that sort of a thing.

- That was my kind of question is like,

I'm from the Midwest originally.

So I was like, I wonder how well this is going to work

from the standpoint of like, you know, my parents

or my, you know, my family that might order from Amazon,

can they get it, can they get it one day?

Does it even give them that option?

Cause it's kind of out in the middle of the, you know,

flyover country.

- Well, they have enough data.

They already know how to get inventory to the location.

So I don't think it would be that much of a stretch

for them to say, look, like we'll make sure

I have enough of this on hand to do it.

And it's a small roll out first.

Maybe you do a limited run with a few thousand products

and then you can open it up to a lot more.

And I think it has to be, you know, the way that you described it with these kind of independent contracting companies,

like they can't ship the stuff through UPS or FedEx because like the cost would be so astronomical, like it wouldn't make sense,

even with the prime memberships that they're getting, it still wouldn't make any sense.

No, that's the deal. I mean, that's why Amazon went to their own Amazon Air, right? They moved to buying their own planes and

building more warehouses closer to, they have more of a hub and spoke model now so that they can

get these things on truck from place to place and then get him the last mile next day.

So it's saving them millions and really billions of dollars in shipping because they pay so

much for shipping.

It's just outrageous.

Kind of on the same topic, but off the topic, there was a thing of, it's probably been a

year ago that I found this already, but it was a way, somebody who gave you a way that

you could find out what your total spend on Amazon is all time.

Yeah, there's a way you can export all of your shopping into an Excel. Yeah

I don't recommend you do it. I agree

It's pretty terrifying. I said I said very emphatically that I would not do that and then I did it and I was just like oh my god

Why did I do it? Yeah, exactly. It didn't feel good. That wasn't a good idea. Yeah better decisions in my life

I'll link to that in the show notes if you're curious about your Amazon's how to do that. Yeah, and it's all time, right?

It goes back to like the beginning. Yeah when they were just a bookstore. Yeah

when you're just buying college textbooks.

- Right.

- Yeah.

- That's a long time ago, buddy.

- It's a lot cheaper then.

It's funny how you can see the progression

because it was like the distribution,

like the first few years pretty small.

And then there was a notable jump,

like probably in my 2008 or something.

And it's just been off the rails ever since then.

So I don't use it a whole lot right now actually.

I'll tell you that.

I've been using less of Amazon.

I'm just buying less.

I don't think it's because I'm going somewhere else.

I'm just buying less.

I'm with you, especially this month,

we've been trying to cut back, but any particular reason?

- Well, I don't know.

I think that maybe it's just because I've got

all the things I need.

I mean, there was a period of time there

when I was in the apartment

that there was just a lot of different things that,

well, for one thing I had two pets,

and so there was all kinds of pet supplies and food

and that sort of thing that I was ordering on the regular.

And I don't know, like little odds and ends

for the apartment.

really need now is like laundry detergent, you know, dryer sheets, paper towels, toilet

paper, like that kind of stuff.

Subscribe and save.

Yeah, like those types of items.

And so I do that, I just don't have them very often.

Like if I get a big roll, a jumbo roll of toilet paper, like I might do that a couple

times a year or something.

I just don't, you know what I mean?

Like I don't need them that often.

Yeah.

We still utilize Costco for some of those kind of big bulk purchases like that.

But yeah, I definitely have like detergents and soaps

and things like that that come, you know,

via Amazon Prime, subscribe and save, cat food.

- Yeah. - Yeah.

- Yeah, like I said, I still use it.

And more now than anything, I'll just get like odd

and end style, get books with it sometimes

or really the thing I've used it most this year

has been all this shit that we have in front of us here.

Like I've been getting most of this stuff from Amazon.

- Yeah, you've got a pretty, I mean, let's just be honest here.

the, what I've got sitting in front of me, this mic, this laptop, those are mine.

The rest of this shit's mics.

Yeah.

Technically belongs to Pragma Consulting LLC.

Thank you very much for your contributions to this marketing endeavor.

It's a marketing expense.

Yeah.

In the business world.

Yeah.

We'll talk a little bit about more tax write offs here in another episode.

But yeah, that's another way.

We're getting a little long in the, in the chatty-ness here.

Maybe we should move along.

Yeah.

Let's move along.

So I don't know how much of this we're going to get to or how much we even

should get to.

but you know last week. Oh yeah please queue up the please queue that up for me.

You're getting a little excited man. I need our course. We need our bumper. Here we go.

It's okay man you get a little excited. I understand. I get a little course light in

me and all of a sudden like I get a little lit up you know just getting fired up about things.

The topic for today though is is Microsoft Build Conference 2019 so that was last week

the Washington State Convention Center.

And we had good intentions last week of covering some of the details, but I liked the discussion

we had because it was more of a state of the union kind of a talk about where Microsoft

was and where they're going and some of the cool things that have happened at the organizational

level and not so much about the product announcements.

So I'd like to switch gears and do that today.

We'll see what we can get through.

We didn't get through any of them.

We didn't get through anything.

We can pick and choose and we don't have to spend too much time on any one of these things.

There was a lot, a lot, a lot of product announcements that came out last week, a lot of cool stuff.

And I took a couple pages of notes just trying to get the cliff notes version of what was going on.

So if you're not super into technical jargon, you know, that's probably what the most of the rest of this cast is going to be about.

So you can excuse yourself if you're not a super tech nerd.

We won't get too deep in the weeds, I hope, but we'll talk about them from a little bit of a higher level.

- Yeah, I apologize in advance for everybody else.

This is like the most technical we ever get on the show.

Usually it's a lot of tech news and bullshit

and that sort of thing.

And maybe if it gets a little dry in the middle,

you can throw some Tesla news in there or something for us.

- Yeah.

- But I think for the developer community,

especially the .NET community,

there's an open source community for that matter.

There is a lot of really exciting things happening.

Right now in Microsoft, and I'd like to jump right in.

Let's just talk about kind of the big one

is the .NET framework, .NET roadmap.

And this has been painful for us for a while now,

because kind of like back in the day

when you had to write code for different browsers,

and you had to do one thing for Google Chrome

and one thing for Firefox, and it was just real tedious work

to get a project out the door.

Like we've kind of had this dilution in the .NET framework

now, where if you want to build for mobile apps

in the Xamarin framework, then you're

using kind of one part of the .NET framework over here.

And if you're doing desktop development,

There's a different .NET framework here.

And if you're working on a Mac, well,

that's a whole other framework.

And some stuff is just going to work.

.NET Roadmap with .NET 5 brings all those together.

So you have one .NET.

Now you're going to get rid of all these different libraries

and mismatch of methods and that sort of thing.

And it's really going to give you one experience across all

platforms--

Mac, Linux, PC--

and one experience over all devices.

So whether you're working with mobile or Windows desktop

or web apps.

You're gonna have one experience, one base library.

It's gonna simplify development quite a bit.

- Build once and deploy for many devices, right?

That's the idea?

- That's the idea.

And I think there's still a long way to go

before it's just like this panacea

of like one code for everything,

but they're making great progress in that direction.

And so yes, like that is the idea.

Write once, deploy to many.

And so I think the long-term vision would be almost,

if you could imagine, you have a project,

you write code for that one project,

and with a click of a button, it goes on your Windows desktop,

it goes to your mobile phone, it goes to your iPad, whatever.

And I think that's the direction they're going.

Not quite there, but it's getting a lot better

than it used to be.

- And I think this is just the next kind of incarnation

of the .NET framework, right?

They kind of went from like, purely .NET framework,

that was kind of the only thing that was available,

and they went to, they had .NET Core and .NET Standard,

which .NET Core was kind of the new way to do things,

which I think is more or less what the new,

what is it, .NET 5?

- Yes.

- That's more or less what it is, right?

- It's Core, it's just, yeah.

It's gonna be the new guy going forward

and they're gonna bring the other things into that fold.

- But before you had .NET Standard,

which could kind of bridge the gap

between those two frameworks,

either one could talk to it,

so you kind of have like a middleman, if you will.

- Right.

just kind of fully launching all the way to the other side, which I think is

is needed and has been needing to be done for a while, but it was kind of a slow

iterative process and they're finally getting to that point where they can just

pull the rug out. A ton of work too, I would say that. Like there's just the

sheer amount of work that the guys had to go through to get to this point. It's

not going to release until late next year, so it's not even really close to

release yet, but they're doing a ton to make this work cross-platform. So very

exciting if you're developing the dotnet space for sure like look for things

to get a little simpler in you know in the road ahead here.

Does it still support VB.net?

Oh of course.

Oh well good then I'm in.

VB.net C# and now they even have Q# which is their quantum computing language.

F#.

F# yeah I don't really use F# do you ever do any F#?

Throw a lot of F bombs.

F bombs dude yeah that's right that's not going to be supported in the framework but

I have no problem with that at all.

Well, we got a little message here from one of our listeners, and he wants the spin coffee

update.

God damn it.

We don't have a spin coffee update.

Sorry to derail you here.

I'm just going to, no, it's actually good to break it up a little bit.

I looked this morning for a spin update because, you know, they're supposed to be monthly.

And of course, what is it?

It's not even, it's the middle of May, and there's no May update yet.

So there's a lot of, the update right now is there's a lot of people on the forums

Complaining that you know, oh you guys are back to your old ways. It was not giving us any fucking updates

Where's our coffee maker? The update is still that there is no update

That's the perpetual update. We can say the same thing, but that's where it's at. Yeah, exactly

We're just gonna keep following up eventually you will have something maybe yeah

I mean I could always have a refund that's still an option. I could go back and get my $600 back for this

fucking

Magical piece of equipment that doesn't exist. I don't know

It's a bit now on the show like if you would if you would go for the refund and not get anything and we couldn't talk about it anymore

I don't think that would be as much fun. Well, and I don't care

I spent the money on that at this point at $600 was spent as far as I'm concerned

It's fodder for the show entertainment value and well and to be honest I bought this thing almost three years ago

So I'm not missing the money. Yeah, you know, it's like I paid it's like paying that tax bill three years ago

I kind of forgot about it now. So yeah

Well, thanks for thanks for the reminder of that

Now let's go back to our topic

Yeah, so moving on from the .NET framework that other big announcement too is that you know, there's a big

Shift that's happened over the years and web development where you kind of have

Everything was on the server right and then it's like okay

We're gonna go from the server and then we're gonna have the browser do all the work

and then you get into jQuery and JavaScript frameworks and that sort of thing and and

It's evolved to a point now where I feel like you almost have to spend as much time on the front end as you do on the back end

You got to build out all your APIs and you have to build out the database and all the infrastructure and then you

Have more sophisticated models that you're actually bringing over to the browser

And so you have to build those out on the client and so now you've got view JS and Angular and these other frameworks to help

Manage that and make it simpler and provide some scaffolding around building your web app on the front

Microsoft's trying to compete in that space to try and actually make things a little easier for the developer here, too

and so they're coming out the product called dotnet blazer and

They promise that it's not another silver light.

So I think that was like the branding of it.

It's like, not another silver light.

Be not afraid.

This is actually something different and pretty cool

that they're doing.

But the idea is that it's C# in the front end.

So it sounds kind of interesting.

How do you do that?

Well, really, it's taking advantage of WebAssembly.

And they're taking your C# code in Razor,

and they're compiling it down to WebAssembly

and running it on the browser.

So this one, although interesting, I actually found this one fascinating that they even

ventured into this.

Yes.

The front end frameworks from a dev perspective are moving at such an incredibly fast pace.

We've talked about this a number of times in the office.

If you're working in back end code, that's pretty well baked.

Stuff comes slowly, but generally the patterns have been pretty well established.

You do it in a certain way.

There might be some arguments about that.

But generally it doesn't move super quickly, whereas the front end moves incredibly quick.

If you're not in the front end for six months, you're probably well behind.

Right.

I would agree with that.

And now, like, you're porting effectively a back end language to replace or try to write

front end code in frameworks that are, you know, it's not using the frameworks that are

well established and well recognized as kind of like the default things to go to for a

front end project.

So I'm a little bit interested to hear how they're going to accomplish this and if it

get any kind of adoption because I think they've already been bitten by web forms and Microsoft

MVC and all these other things that are kind of feel pretty heavy-handed compared to the typical

front-end frameworks like an outraiser view or react or angular.

Well, what I would say to that, what they might say to that too, is that back in the day,

you were trying to make it feel like a familiar environment if you're a C# developer to do web

development, but you're still having to deal with JavaScript and all those things.

It's just that they try to maybe obscure some of the details from you or abstract them away.

And MVC, admittedly, was like a server-side code, right?

I mean, there was some stuff running on the client, but mostly it was just like server-side

code and a lot of Ajax calls happening.

Right.

Kind of a Microsoft Ajax flavor.

Yes.

Yep.

So, this is a departure from that because really, like, you're not turning anything.

You're not converting to JavaScript.

You're not trying to approximate something in JavaScript at all.

It's just like there's actually two hosting options.

So one is that if you want to do client side hosting,

then it will take your C# and compile it down into WebAssembly,

which WebAssembly is actually growing and in popularity

and is really a fast--

one of the fastest ways I know of to actually do front end work

right now--

Don't get me wrong, I think that view

and those guys are pretty good,

but this is like a good competitor to that.

So this is a way to get C sharp into that.

And I think that that's an appealing option

because you're already familiar with it.

Here's the benefit, you don't have to do your models twice.

You don't have to have, your API has a view model

and then you go back to your front end code

and you gotta have a JavaScript model.

It eliminates all of that.

You basically just use your API view model in the browser

And it already has the events that you need,

like the click events and all the event handlers

to handle the events that you're trying to process.

- I think that's always been a,

like, you know, it makes me think of like rails

back in the day when like you could scaffold shit.

You like, you would like literally write like,

rails scaffold user or something like that.

And it would build you a user form

and that would interact with the database.

And like everything just kind of happened automatically.

- Yep.

- It was great until you needed to do like anything

sophisticated with it and then like all fell apart. Like I kind of feel like

that's where this is going to be headed. Like I think it can do some things very

quickly and easily for like a very basic project. But I think once you really

start to have to pull it apart and do something more sophisticated, I think

it's personally I think it's not going to do well, but I'll be interested to tie

into it and see how it works. Is this time to crack the second one here? Let's do it.

All right. Oh yeah, that's good. There we go. One more.

(snaps fingers)

- Mmm, that's for our listeners.

(laughing)

That's the third man.

Well, there you go. - That's the third man

on our show. - Yeah.

- Now this is an interesting option.

So the first thing I said is C# down to WebAssembly,

but the other option is server-side hosting.

So this I'm a little skeptical of too,

but it's kind of crazy what they're doing.

So server-side is you write your code once, okay,

and then you compile and it will spit out the DOM only

on the front end.

So like your front end website will be just HTML on the edge, like 400 bytes or whatever

it takes to render your page.

And then everything that happens on the page goes back to the server through SignalR.

So if I click on a button, SignalR to server, it says, "Oh yeah, I got the button clicked,

boom."

Bring it back out.

Wow, so that's real time event handling, not even...

Not even Ajax now.

Now you have a...

It's kind of like, it almost sounds to me like in messaging how we deal with this in

message queues, right?

got that AMQP, AMQ.

Always open connection.

Yeah, a perpetual connection to the hub or to the server.

And yeah, and it's routing everything back.

Super fast in the demo.

I mean, they had one of those demos

where you like it counts how many times you have a counter

and you click the button.

And as fast as you click the button,

it's going back to the server to do the addition

and send back the number.

Right.

So if you're not familiar, like SignalR,

probably the best way to describe that

would be if you think of a chat application,

like a real time chat with somebody.

That's kind of a good use case for SignalR

where it's like anybody that's subscribing to it.

So like if I'm sending a message to Mike,

like he's got an open connection and he receives the event

and it immediately pipes into his side

and tells him that there's a new message.

- I think of it like a simpler way to describe it

would be like the old landline or like through a telephone.

You know, like a typical web request and a web response

would be kind of like picking up a phone and dialing a number

and then waiting for someone to pick up

And then you relay the information, and then you both hang up.

I mean, that's kind of a way where signalar is just like,

you got the phone, you're already dialed,

somebody's on the other end, and now you just keep the thing on,

like off the hook the whole time, and you're just talking.

And you can wait 30 minutes and come back to the phone

and say something, and they're already there listening to you.

So you don't have any latency.

There's no delay in connecting to the other side.

And so effectively, it's compiling it down.

It's not a whole lot different than when you compile or--

build down like a view project.

Effectively what you've got at the end is just HTML

and JavaScript that are posting to some server

or something somewhere.

But in this case, the posts are to SignalR

versus to an API which is kind of a round trip type thing

where basically you're saying like, hey, API,

here's some data, open connection,

here's data, close connection, right?

- That's right.

- So I thought that was interesting.

I'm not sure how practical that will be either.

I like to see it.

to get my hands on it a little bit more.

But I did love the idea of the simplicity

of not having to replicate in the front end

what you've already done in the back end.

I think if they really pulled it off,

then that could be a big time saver.

And maybe it's not something for, you know,

I don't know, I'm just making this up.

Maybe it's not for like public front facing sites at scale,

but it could be great for intranet,

or if you need to stand up and out pretty quickly,

that you just eliminate a lot of work.

- I would agree with that.

That makes a lot of sense.

Yep.

- So that's pretty neat, man.

.Net Blazer, that was a new one.

- And is that available immediately

or when is that shipping?

- You can already do work with it,

but I don't think that's for production use yet.

This is still in preview.

And the idea here too is that it's going to replace

Microsoft Web Forms, which is the old beast

that you and I got started on back in the Med Center days.

- Web Forms, I love, I don't know, I don't love them.

- We don't really love Web Forms.

But they were nice back in the day.

You could like drag and drop shit onto a screen

and then all of a sudden, you know,

like Microsoft Magic happens and your database is on your web page and all that cool stuff,

grid views.

Yeah, it was very much kind of built off the old Windows Forms model.

Yeah, that was the idea, kind of like building, it was the drag and drop idea that you used

to do when you were doing Windows development.

You can now bring to the web.

They announced that that's going to be retired.

It's not going to be developed or supported past.net 4.8, so it's not coming over to .net

.NET Blazor is going to be the new way to do web, all things web, and it uses

Razor and all that cool stuff. Did they talk anything about backward

compatibility from .NET 5 on to back to any of the you know versions that are

existing .NET framework .NET core etc? Hmm I'm I wasn't privy to that if that

happened I don't I don't know. Yeah just kind of I mean just was curious as to

like how much rework you had you're gonna have to do to to migrate to that kind

of a framework. So yeah, there'll be some. I think I think that's the idea is that

like there's it's it's gonna be a lot of work if you're gonna have to go from a

web forms to a blazer or something like that right. Sure. You know from done at

four to five just the framework stuff I think I think it's gonna be kind of

like what it is now for framework versus core right like it's there's gonna be

some things that just don't exist anymore that you're gonna have to get

- Right. - Or rewrite.

So. - That's cool.

I'm excited to see the new technologies.

I'm not gonna say that it's gonna replace

Vue, React, and Angular.

I think those are pretty well-established players

in the business.

And I think of Blazor almost,

it kind of makes me think of like Microsoft's forays

into like, what's a good example?

Well, trying to re-introduce Internet Explorer or Edge.

- Yep, yep.

- Right?

in that particular industry, they're not well respected in.

The last time Microsoft kind of really published

a front end package, what was it, front page?

- Yeah, the front page was kind of like a cold fusion,

not cold fusion, but Macromedia,

what, Dreamweaver or something like that?

- No, that was totally different.

Front page was a Microsoft product, I'm pretty sure.

- No, no, that's what I'm saying, it was like to rival that.

- Ah, yeah, I see what you're saying, yeah.

- Yeah, and it was just not pretty.

I think that's, the markup it had was pretty disgusting,

kind of like a Word document or something.

- Yeah, font tags and stuff like that.

I remember that was kind of the first thing

that I got into when I got into,

it's probably not even correct to say development

at that point.

- Fiddling with code.

(laughing)

- But we definitely put together a lot of databases

that had access back ends, Microsoft access,

'cause that's what I wanted to use.

- That's right.

- Yeah, and I was trying to convince,

coworkers to use CSS instead of these font tags

and all this other BS.

- Why do I want to do that?

I can just say width equals 49 right here.

- Right, exactly, it's so much more convenient.

- It looks good.

- Yeah, color equals black.

- It's actually not a bad segue,

it's not next on the list, but it's in here somewhere,

but you're talking about Microsoft Edge,

and one of the big announcements that they had

was that they finally, you know,

this is something we've hated for years as developers,

is maintaining these different standards on each browser.

And so if you're coding, not only like for Chrome

or for Firefox or Edge or IE,

but now it's like within the IE community,

You got to support IE6 versus 7 versus 10.

They're all a little different.

Some tags work in some and some tags break in others.

And they were trying to get on the same standard,

but never really did.

And they finally caved in and said, fuck it.

Like the next version of Edge is going

to be running on Chromium.

I think we talked about this a little bit in the last show,

if I'm not mistaken.

But yeah, it's going to run on the Chrome engine.

That's right.

Maybe we did cover that last time.

Because that was a pretty big deal.

I mean, that's huge.

It is a big deal.

Huge announcement.

Yeah.

So really what amounts to is kind of like,

Microsoft is kind of wrapping the Chrome browser,

kind of like in a simplistic term,

it's the wrapping the Chrome browser.

- The engine behind Chrome, right?

Like where it does all the interpreting

and draws the shit on your screen,

that's all gonna be one code base now.

But they can still say that they have their own browser

and then they can add their own enhancements to it.

- Right.

Will they still send a non-IE user agent string?

I don't know that you can't filter them out.

That's a great question.

I don't know.

I know they have IE mode.

I'm not really sure what they're going to do about that.

That was so IE mode.

If I'm not mistaken, that was a feature that if it is, uh, you know,

if, if like a lot of these big organizations have websites that are super legacy, super

old, and they continue to run, but they can only run in a certain version of the

browser, let's say IE six, seven, something like that.

I mode, if I'm not mistaken, is if you're using edge, the new version of IE, it will

understand that that site was built only for that technology, that kind of era.

And it'll kind of downgrade itself, for lack of a better term, to render in kind of IE6

or IE7 mode.

And more of a backward compatible fashion.

Right.

So it'll continue to render the page, which is cool.

That continues support for these applications.

It's cool on that aspect, but it's also unfortunate that it's not just like the final

like nail in the coffin like get these fucking apps out of here. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Well, that'll be helpful. It'll help people migrate over because right now you've got to

maintain multiple versions of browser. If you're a legacy shop and you're running old,

old programs that are on the 10 years old or something like that. That's why I was just

going to look up how old is goddamn IE six or seven. Well, I mean, we were dealing with that

in Nebraska still, I thought we were. Right. So that would have been like 2005, six.

Internet Explorer 7 long time ago. It is a long time ago was released in 2006

That was seven

IE 7 was yes, so 6 had to be like 2004 6 was horrible and worse. No, it was 2001

Oh my god, so we have apps that are running still that are 18 years old

We've been complaining about this browser for that long

Half my damn life. I've been cussing IE 6. Yeah, it's getting better. Yeah

We're making progress there sort of

We're masking the problem. Yeah. Well, this is this is the effort that we talked about last week that Microsoft is really trying to be a

Solutions provider for all technologies across all platforms and so like it's not necessarily about our stuff's better now

It's like how can we make your experience better?

And I think this is a big step it goes a long way and it's gonna make our lives as developers a lot easier on the web

Not having to worry about that shit anymore

So yeah, that's about all I can say about that.

We can move along a little bit.

Do you have anything interesting you want to sprinkle in the middle here?

>> No.

>> Okay. This might be interesting to some people,

because it sounds super techy and geeky,

but Microsoft, Azure, and their Cloud,

they have a lot of these services that you can

use to hook up to your applications to do things.

Cognitive Services is a big branch of the offerings they have.

What is cognitive services?

Well, what cognitive services is all kinds of cool stuff,

like speech recognition, like speech to text,

or text to speech.

And so just think before the cloud,

I had a little business and I wanted to transcribe,

you know, like doctors used to do this all the time, right?

Like they'd have to call a transcription service

and have someone like convert their notes over the phone,

like to text.

- Yeah.

pay a lot of money for that service or some hospitals would pay for that service. And

it was really a pain in the ass because the doctor would have to dictate their notes into

the phone and then wait for someone to type them up and then send them back. And maybe

it wasn't perfect or it was hard to understand. And so that was a very manual process. And

that's just one industry, one example. There's lots of other things like that. Well, Microsoft

Azure's cognitive services, one of the things they offer is this service for you automatically.

And it's all done by computers. And by the way, they do a much better job than anybody

listening on the phone.

And they can do it in multiple languages.

They can find disposition information, which is pretty cool.

So a good example to that might be you take a whole recording of, say, a phone call to

like, a good example of this might be something that people aren't happy, right?

Maybe you're calling back like your credit card company for a charge that isn't yours

or something like that, and you're not going to be very happy.

And so they record the entire call.

Microsoft Cognitive Services can ingest that entire audio conversation and

Give you a score like a sentiment analysis. Yep. So like on a scale of 100 100 being really angry

Yeah, and zero being happy

They'll give you a score of that conversation and say like we can say with x percent accuracy

We think this person is you know, 99% angry. That's right. Yeah, that's right

And it's it's really easy to hook up

This would have been something so complicated to try to build on your own before and get accurate and now

You can go to their site and you can hook this up and you can put your own data into it and immediately get feedback

It's really amazing what they can do

And so we're looking at this for one of our projects around SMS messaging

And we want to try to figure out like is there a way that we can automate opting people out of our text messages

You know like for example if we send a message like would you like a quote and they say fuck off

We would like to automate that and say they probably don't want to hear from us again.

100% angry.

Yeah, that's right.

And so I tried this through their form.

I put that text in there and sure enough, it was a very negative sentiment.

And so you could almost say, look, if the sentiment score is below a certain threshold,

then automatically unsubscribe these people, put them on, do not call, do not contact,

and move on.

And you don't have to have a human there reading messages and logging into the system

and doing all this work.

It's all automated.

- Right.

- Along those lines, they had a really powerful demo

using Microsoft Word and speech services.

And so what they were doing was a translation service.

And you kind of mentioned it a minute ago,

but the demo that they had up on the screen

was really cool.

They had like nine different windows of Microsoft Word open

and they're trying to simulate, you know,

a live document that someone was typing,

but there was people from all over the world

that were reading this document.

And so as I'm typing in English,

as soon as I type like a letter or two letters

three letters. It's immediately typing this in nine different languages. Greek,

Hebrew, Spanish, you know, like across the board and it's live translating

everything. And so it was the coolest thing I've ever seen because there was no

delay, no late anything and you know you delete a thing and then update it.

Boom, it's in real time. Yeah and I think we talked about that too maybe maybe in

the previous episode because I was talking about the competing power behind

that and you think about all the different things that need to happen.

and number one, translating it to all those nine different languages, understanding the

context of the sentence that it was put in because they're all written in different ways

and then you have to understand the context of the word that's being transcribed.

So the processing power that is happening behind the scenes and for it to do all of

that and return the data from the server in that quick of a time is pretty incredible.

It is.

It's hard to grasp just how much compute power is behind that operation.

And the speed.

Yeah.

You think back to the good old dial-up days, man,

like you think of it just the sheer speed of you

sending it up, it doing stuff and sending it back

and then you don't even perceive.

- Yeah, I remember the old AOL days

when I wanted to like download an image, you know?

And it was like,

- Come on, you were downloading an MP3 is nabster.com.

- Well, nabster, that would take years though, dude.

- Lime wire.

- Back in like the, no, the late 90s,

if I wanted to do that shit, like a song would take,

I would do that overnight.

Like I would, I would set a whole album up and go to bed

and then come back and hope that it didn't error out

some bullshit. Oh, yeah. But even if you just wanted a single image,

pick up the phone, anything, anything, exactly. Yes, exactly. Like, oh, I got to make a phone

call. Yeah. Oh, my dial up just got killed. Yeah, got to start over. Got to hook that up to your

team line. I was at 97%. And then I got wiped out. Fuckers. No recovery from that. No, no recovery.

I don't want to talk about all these things, but cognitive service is so powerful. And the

the technology behind it is really impressive.

I like the example they gave out, personalizers.

So personalizers a new service that came out

of the conference and this is about artificial intelligence

that will analyze user behavior to make suggestions.

So the kind of the example that they gave,

they're working with Starbucks right now.

Did we talk about this last time too?

- No. - Okay.

This is pretty sweet.

So they're working on a pilot with Starbucks

And let's just say, right now, one of their most popular

food items is the ham and cheese sandwich,

or whatever the fuck it is,

I don't know what's the popular thing there.

Something with sausage in it.

And so what they're gonna do is they're just gonna show it

to everybody based on popularity.

Like, well, we know that this is our best selling product,

and so when anybody comes to the app,

let's show this food item and recommend it.

Well, now you're upsetting vegetarians

and those types of folks who don't like sausage

and cheese, biscuits, it's not going to appeal to everybody.

And right now, that's just kind of a naive implementation.

We don't have a better way of targeting items for people

when they come to the store or go online to order.

And so personalizer is really interesting.

So it takes it to the next level.

It'll look and say, well, let's look at all of your buying

habits over the lifetime of your account with us

and see what you get.

And then you notice trends.

Like, OK, well, this person never

orders anything with meat in it.

Or this person's always getting iced drinks

or whatever, and then it can tailor that message

on your app to recommend items that you prefer

and give you suggested items that are kind of

in the same family of items.

And so I thought that was really cool.

The vegetarian example was one that they showcased

where it was like, yeah, we have a really high confidence,

97% of this person is a vegetarian,

so we're gonna show them these five products instead.

- So it's kind of the same type of thing,

but it's giving you a confidence score

in various personal areas of what it knows about you?

- It's gonna look at your buying history.

It's also gonna take into account what you bought

and the weather, the location, the time of year.

And so maybe if you're typically buying things

in the Seattle area as we are,

then it's gonna make one recommendation,

but it notices that when you go on vacation,

then maybe you get the bad drinks.

Like you get the ones that are really chuckful of calories

because you're splurging or something.

And so it'll recommend a sugary drink when you're on vacation.

So it's pretty nuanced and dialed in these models, what they can do to,

to make accurate suggestions and then also avoid the things that it knows you

don't like.

Maybe we should use this for our reporting system so that it would be

nuanced enough to know like, Oh, hey, by this time of year,

maybe your lead count goes down by X, Y, Z percent.

Oh, that'd be cool. Yeah. To say like, don't, don't be alarmed.

Currently, like it currently it's pretty dumb, right?

It sees trends in a week's time versus knowing over a course of a year,

like, oh, this might be traditionally expected.

You know, oh, it's a holiday.

Oh, suddenly you should have a sharp drop in traffic because nobody's buying

insurance on an Easter or something.

No, totally.

We have a bunch of false positives all the time with alerting, right?

Because if you're just looking at yesterday's data or you're looking at last

Tuesday's data or whatever, that might work out most of the time, but then

there's going to be those exceptions that you just mentioned.

And then you're wasting a lot of time tracking down an issue that doesn't exist.

So, um, you know, this is, this is getting away from like those naive

implementations and really like getting a better understanding of, of what's

happening and all the variables that are involved in a decision and saying,

okay, let's make smarter recommendations.

Let's eliminate the junk.

And so that was a very cool, uh, demo just for ordering coffee,

but you can take that a lot of other places too.

Little real time follow up here.

Rain is mentioning that McDonald's is doing this already

for their walk up point of sale systems

really based on time of the day.

At least using a recommendation engine.

So he was kind of curious as to how this might differ

from a traditional recommendation engine.

So similar things are already out there,

but I think they're much more binary than this, right?

- Well, I don't know how it works,

but I would have to say, yeah, it just depends on what,

this is an AI model that they're using.

So is that what McDonald's is doing too?

A lot of times the examples out there are more naive

and they're just kind of like, well,

we know that it's lunchtime

and this is the most popular items

and we're gonna show those.

But they could be doing some more data mining

and they might have some more sophisticated models

in that case, I don't know.

Like, that's different. - Sure.

I think that's pretty exciting.

I think the whole idea,

it's kind of the whole machine learning cognitive services

kind of all somewhat blend together

to where you can get kind of better recommendations,

better information,

understand the context or the idea behind what it is, the data is basically telling you

information about, meta information about the data that you're presenting.

It's kind of really what it's doing.

Big part of it.

And the only other one I would mention that was kind of interesting too is this form recognizer.

It's the same idea.

It's that for businesses that still deal with a lot of paper transactions, think like car

dealerships and that sort of thing.

If you want to digitize that, that's a real difficult process and it requires a lot of

of oversight and data entry and that sort of thing

to be accurate.

Well, now they've done a really nice job using AI

to, if you give it five copies of the same form,

just with different data on it, as long as it looks the same,

then that's enough to reverse engineer all the fields that

are on that form.

And then you can transcribe all that

to from text to digital as well.

And that's via image?

Like you just upload five images?

Yeah, five images.

Yeah.

And that's all it needs minimally to train the model.

And then once it has that, it knows,

the first names here and the social security numbers there and then you can just feed it

all of them and then in the system.

That's pretty powerful.

I could see a lot of use cases for that for sure.

Yeah.

And then just have some kind of like immediate scanner that you can just feed the form into

boom.

Yeah.

You know what the fields are and uploads it and enters it in as an actual data point

yeah versus a physical paper copy.

Yeah.

So you can get that and then all of a sudden in your code you can start writing like, okay,

I want to access these fields and find out but you can agree against it pretty quickly.

I feel like we could use that here.

Yeah.

Do we have a lot of paper stuff here?

Yeah, just for some ideas that have been thrown around.

It'd be worth looking into.

It's really easy to get started now.

So yeah, I would check it out.

That and the combination is the ink recognizer.

So it'll recognize handwriting with a pretty high degree

of accuracy too, like sloppy handwriting.

Oh, like cursive or something like that.

You can pick up and understand what those text marks are.

Yeah.

So like the DMV, if you're like hand-filling out

these forms, it can read those and interpret those as text

as well.

That'd be fun to mess with.

Yeah.

I feel like it almost be like the old, uh,

capture images.

Like you're like, I think that's a why.

Right.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Does it give you a high degree of confidence of what, uh,

what the handwriting is?

So in that demo, they weren't giving probabilities.

It was just converting it.

Yeah.

So I don't know behind the scenes.

I'm sure that's what you could access or just say, look, if it's below a certain

confidence, then you're going to have to kick it off to a manual process.

Right.

But if you only had to do that for 10% of the data entry,

Or something like that or just go through and validate right like it gives you a picture of the image and what it thinks

It's gonna translate to and you can just hit a checkbox and say yep that looks good or no that looks bad

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's cool. So very cool stuff. I think those are some of the highlights from cognitive services

There's a lot more than they're doing though, but that was just some fun practical stuff to kind of wrap your heads around there

Yeah, so what else came out of the build like is that is that pretty much?

I know you talked about a little bit about Docker and Kubernetes

Cognitive services seem to be a big impact at the conference as well.

Yeah, there was so much around that.

And obviously some of the announcements that you mentioned, you know, the product announcements,

but was that kind of the main highlights?

I would say so. I think for sure the developer tools, so Visual Studio updates, that was a pretty big deal too.

There's some nice features coming out in the new version of the developer tools there.

And they did mention a little bit about Azure,

just how it's become the world computer.

I think they're in over 54 regions now.

And so they've just really been on a terror

to build data centers all over the world.

And that's really their objective,

is to become the world's computer.

So yeah, tons of growth, some other geeky things.

So we talked about just the processing power.

And so there are some places that you can't get to the cloud

reliably or quickly, or you don't have a good connection.

And so for those things now they have what they're calling Azure Stack.

And so you can get different flavors of the entire Azure cloud in a physical

hardware device that you can bring in the example they gave.

They have this ruggedized SUV that has a Microsoft decal on it.

They're driving it like through some remote part of Africa somewhere.

And they deploy drones from the back of the Microsoft truck to go collect data.

And but what they're doing with this is pretty phenomenal.

So if you have a natural disaster somewhere like an earthquake in some part of the world,

then they can deploy this vehicle and these drones and they can immediately collect the

samples of the terrain and use AI to figure out, well, what's the best path to get to

somebody to rescue them?

Which roadways are intact and which ones are underwater or whatever?

You can get very quickly, it can survey the terrain, feed that data back into Azure Stack,

and then give you results on what the best thing to do is.

- Wow, that's pretty cool.

- So I think for disasters,

that was kind of a neat example that they gave.

You could probably do it for other things too,

but if you need a lot of processing

in a quick amount of time, then you can even have,

there's like Azure Stack,

even on like a little board,

like a Raspberry Pi kind of thing.

- What?

- So if you needed to have some processing done,

really close, it could do some stuff there, send it back.

or send somethings to the cloud later.

Some of these were pretty beefy.

Like the one that they had,

I don't remember the name of it now,

it was the data box edge, I think, or something like that.

And it does a lot of processing locally.

It works disconnected,

but then it can also send shit up to the cloud later

when it's reconnected.

And this particular box could hold like one petabyte of data

and then you like wheel it back to Microsoft

and they'll upload it and process it.

- I think that stuff's really cool.

Like those that you could take out into a remote location

where there's no connectivity whatsoever.

And then just collect a ton of information.

Like you said, maybe a drone that's connecting gigabytes

and gigabytes and gigabytes of video, HD content,

have it come back, download it onto whatever,

vehicle or whatever is containing the drives

that are storing all this and then bring that back

to a data center and just offload it and bam,

immediately available in the cloud.

Things are processing it, doing different work on it.

the capabilities there are pretty impressive. Very powerful. Yeah. Reaching all the corners of the

earth. Yeah, those are some of the highlights. And there's other things in here I don't know

that's much worth talking about right now. The new terminal, that was the big one.

Oh, you're going to geek out on the terminal. We don't have to talk about it now. It's pretty

geeky. But the new terminal is pretty fucking phenomenal. Like, if you do anything at the

command line, it's been like, it hasn't been updated in what, 40 years? This new text entry

command line prompt that I type in commands is pretty sexy.

Not really. Yeah, it is. It is. It is.

OK, because of that, I'm not going to get into it.

I am fucking I am jacked about it.

And a lot of people that are command line dudes are like, let's hear

let's hear what the new features are.

Well, it's it's just been updated like for the new the new generation, man.

It got a facelift.

And so before there was just a lot of limitations that you had in the windows

command prompt.

And so you would oftentimes have to download other command line terminals or resort to Linux like bash terminal

A lot of times if you're on Windows, you've got multiples you got PowerShell command

Maybe commander

Get bash

So now I have to use four different terminals just to get the fucking job done. Why do I have to do that?

Why couldn't I just have one? I think it's all done. Well, this is what it does. It's combines all the terminal

Power into one. It's like the what captain planted of terminals when our powers combined

All right, it's it's awesome dude like so that it's it's just you can do everything now from one

Interface without having to download multiple things to and the command line a lot times is a quick way to go

Not for everything, but it can be a really efficient way to get stuff done

So this sounds a little bit about like VS code, which is another

Editing tool that we have but it has a built-in command prompt or a terminal

And you can have many different terminal types that are specified in it.

So it allows you to create many, many terminals.

Each of them can run, one could run Power Show, one could run Bash, one could run whatever.

So it sounds like they're just replicating that into the command prompt that's built

into Windows, more or less.

>> A little bit.

It's a bit more than that.

They run tabs, and so you can have multiple sessions running.

And it's like rich text support.

So now you can do, I don't know why this is a big deal,

but you can do like emojis and shit on there.

(laughing)

- You gotta have those.

- I mean, why not?

If you go on text message, why can't you do it

at the command prompt?

- That way I can flip people off in my code.

- That's right.

- Yeah.

(laughing)

- Got a little bit of a cold here, man.

I'm not 100% right now.

- Oh, you need some tissues?

- I'm okay, we're almost done.

I can just, I can bear and grin it here.

We only have a few more minutes anyway.

- All right.

- I think that was it.

I thought this was interesting.

There's some fun facts.

We're talking about speech to text,

and typing, the average speed for typing

is about 50 words per minute.

I think we're probably a little better than that.

I know we're better than that,

just from doing it all the time,

if you're at the computer always.

But that's the general average,

and speaking is three times that, 150 words a minute.

And so I think there's a big push here

with speech to text, and that sort of thing,

that you can be three times more productive

if you're using speech,

and that's where they're trying to really open things up.

Then you have Alexa and Cortana and that sort of thing already kind of out there, but they're

just trying to make it that much more accessible that you just don't even type.

I think that'll be good for certain entries like dictation or something where you have

to write it out an email or something like that.

But I think in the coding industry, that's going to be a pretty difficult thing to pull

off.

I couldn't imagine coding by speaking.

It just feels weird.

Closing bracket.

Yeah, like what do I say?

Bar.

Console right line.

IntelliSense, IntelliSense.

What's the name of that thing again?

IntelliSense?

C.

Yeah, system.

Yeah.

Namespace.

Yeah.

Dot.

Yeah, yeah, because I'm always just like cheating on there, so I don't know how it would be

any faster.

Right.

So that was one kind of interesting fact.

Another one is too, is that a lot of times we don't really have a sense, I don't have

a sense of what other projects are like out in the wild.

I know that the project that we're on right now, it's a solution that has what probably

eight projects in it.

>> All right.

>> Which can look pretty big if you're not familiar with that sort of thing.

I know that back in the day,

I just worked on one or two little projects.

So that was a big shift for me to see these other solutions that had a lot more going on.

Well, they were talking about the performance of Visual Studio 2019 and

how it can load a lot faster and it can also hide the projects that you're not

interested in but still have them in the background.

So you declutter the screen.

They said that the Roslin project that they had at Microsoft has

168 projects in the solution.

How long does that take to open that damn thing?

Well, a lot longer in Visual Studio 2017.

That's for damn sure.

That was one of the things.

Like, man, it's like a huge performance boost.

Here in Quotewizard, we had a project

called the Whole Inchalata.

Yep.

Which was literally every damn application we had.

Every piece of code that was ever written here.

One big solution.

You opened it up.

It took 30 minutes to open that damn thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's a good example.

If you had it in 2019, it'd probably be a lot quicker.

- Well, we can test it.

I'm sure it exists somewhere.

It probably wouldn't open anymore.

It's so old.

- It's an old one.

- Good thing it's gone.

I'm happy with that.

- Oh, me too.

- Right on.

Well, I have one last thing I thought

might be interesting to talk about,

and that's kind of crunch time,

which is the project that we're working on right now.

- It is crunch time.

- It is crunch time.

We're down to basically a week

in terms of business days to work on the project.

Well, no less than that.

Less than that.

Five days, five days total.

- Before you're supposed to test it.

Like it's supposed to be out in the wild

for people using it.

- That's right.

And we're still working on stuff.

So, crunch time for people that may not be familiar.

Like that's, basically like that's time

that like the developers have to either stay late,

stay on weekends, that sort of thing.

And we've been trying as much as we possibly could

to avoid that.

I've been scheduling bug bashes or code sessions

for late nights.

We've been here a couple, two or three evenings till nine o'clock,

trying to knock some of this stuff out.

But unfortunately, I think we're still gonna be up against it.

The good thing is that I think the team in general

has been really, really responsive to it.

Nobody's kind of really grumbled too much,

even though that, you know, it takes them away from their family

and it takes them away from things that they wanna do

and that sort of thing.

But I think most people are very committed to the project

and very committed to the goal.

- Yes.

- And I think that's something that speaks volumes

to the team that we have here.

Whereas a lot of people may be like, nope,

I'm gonna go home at four, that's my cutoff time,

I need to go home and do this and this and this and this.

People are willing to give up and sacrifice things

that might be near and dear to them,

and I definitely appreciate that.

Not something I expect out of everybody,

that shouldn't be the norm for sure,

and I don't think it ever will be here,

but it's something that I think most developers

have to face at some point.

And I think the team has stepped up huge

and continues to step up huge and I don't know,

just something that a lot of people probably don't realize

about the dev industry is that like, you know,

project lines come up, new features that maybe

are forgotten about or just, you know,

continue to be really buggy,

have to continue to be worked on

and then have to be completely flushed out

before the deadline.

And so like what that results in is like teams of people

sitting in an office, sitting at a computer

trying to figure out the problem

until the wee hours of the morning.

- Well, I think oftentimes the sexy side of development

gets put out there and you often hear about the short days

and the beer Fridays and that sort of thing

and like, you know, unlimited PTO

and like there's certainly a lot of perks

but I think it does come with that balance.

And so like we, you know, I think a lot of people here

we've got the one of the best team

I think we've ever had here in my five years for sure.

And just, you know, you kind of that's the side

that's the balance, right?

That's the balancing act.

It's like, look, you get a lot of liberty

freedom to do these things but then when we need you we need you here and so it's

like you get you don't get one without the other and it's not even really like

it's happening 50/50 it's probably a lot more leisure time than not but I'm

happy too because everybody's been really willing to step up and I've seen

people here late every night it's been pretty cool to be a part of that. Yeah I

would agree I think it's been a pretty cool thing to see and I'm I'm excited for

the the one coming up tomorrow. Yeah I'll be this will be my first one I was out

town for the last one so I'm sticking around it'll be good.

And of course you know I get a grumble grumble grumble on the Facebook messages here.

From olrain? Yeah. Oh he's just teasing. We'll probably bring in some donuts or something.

There you go. All right well thanks everybody for listening thanks for watching if you stuck

with us on this whole thing. Wow we had like up to four or five people at one point. Hey that's

cool. I've never had that happen before. Yeah well the coffee and code cast is recorded live from

Seattle Washington every Wednesday 9 p.m. Eastern 6 p.m. Pacific you can join us at

www.coffeecodecast.com/live I need to get that pointed toward Facebook yes because I think we're

going to be posting here more often our artwork is provided by urne the gentle giant you can

check out more of his illustrations at coffeecodecast.com/gentlegiant you can reach us on

on Twitter @CoffeeCodeCast or via email at

coffeecodecast@gmail.com.

The podcast is available from iTunes, Spotify,

TuneIn, Stitcher, Google Play Music, and Radio Public,

or wherever you get your podcasts.

The website is www.coffeecodecast.com.

Thank you as always for listening.

We'll see you next week.

See you guys.

Woo!

[Music]